Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
- Thread starter FuelGTRX
- Start date
jake_xms3_punk
New member
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
:lol: delete this thread!
:lol: delete this thread!
Sporky McGuffin
New member
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
Nonsense. How can you make a valid comparison when there's a 5-minute gap between plays while you swap the caps?
Nonsense. How can you make a valid comparison when there's a 5-minute gap between plays while you swap the caps?
Brown Note
New member
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
Must... resist... urge... to... comply...
But sporky is absolutely correct, people have terrible aural memory. Besides, 1dB is the least amount of loudness change that is noticeable, which makes the 20% accuracy in caps *and* pots understandable.
By the way the 20% accuracy usually means that the parts are atleast 10% off as the better ones are picked and priced as more accurate. This means that none of the electrical components used inside guitars are close to their nominal values.
EDIT: also the effects of the esr values of caps and intrisic inductances of pots and wiring are faaaaaaaaaar beyond human hearing which is faaaaar beyond anything that guitar pickups produce.
Must... resist... urge... to... comply...
But sporky is absolutely correct, people have terrible aural memory. Besides, 1dB is the least amount of loudness change that is noticeable, which makes the 20% accuracy in caps *and* pots understandable.
By the way the 20% accuracy usually means that the parts are atleast 10% off as the better ones are picked and priced as more accurate. This means that none of the electrical components used inside guitars are close to their nominal values.
EDIT: also the effects of the esr values of caps and intrisic inductances of pots and wiring are faaaaaaaaaar beyond human hearing which is faaaaar beyond anything that guitar pickups produce.
Last edited:
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
Even if you say recording is useless because the playing response is different, you can still take two guitars that to you sound the same, or that you know exactly how they sound, and then change the capacitor in one of them. Then, play both again, with the unchanged one as a frame of reference.
Also, what's wrong with using a switch, at least temorarily?
Even if you say recording is useless because the playing response is different, you can still take two guitars that to you sound the same, or that you know exactly how they sound, and then change the capacitor in one of them. Then, play both again, with the unchanged one as a frame of reference.
Also, what's wrong with using a switch, at least temorarily?
Gingrel
New member
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
Cool, I bought one of each by accident the other day, can I get them to make little baby caps??
Cool, I bought one of each by accident the other day, can I get them to make little baby caps??
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
Just for some perspective;
- The OP had no idea what value the caps were! He would certainly have noticed a difference in value more than type.. I'd like to know the value of the pots also. Normally they'd be 500k in an LP, but you never know, & some are not marked well, so the OP may not have known.
This thread got a bit mean. - there was no need for all that. People shouldn't be so dismissive of others ideas. Both sides made some good points;
- A: I shouldn't assume you can't hear it because I can't hear it.
- B: It is highly likely that; for most people, if they expect a boutique cap to sound better, they will perceive it to sound better. This is not an insult, just something we know about the way humans hear. (& it doesn't mean they DON'T sound different, just that it's hard to tell..)
To finally resolve this would require truly blind tests of caps of different construction, which have been measured to be the exact same value.
Short of that, - if you can afford it, I guess there's nothing wrong with just throwing a more expensive cap in your guitar, - but there's no sense in anyone who can't easily afford it agonizing over it. - There are numerous upgrades you might want to do to a guitar before one that makes so small a change.
Also - there's quite a difference between spending $4.00 or $10.00 on a component that normally costs from $0.04 to $0.50 & spending $75.00 !!! (It better be the holy grail of tone..)
______________________________________________________________________________
P.S. Re: Orange Drops, to whom it may concern;
1: There is a difference in construction between 715P & 225P "Orange Drops" the 715P being polypropylene film & 225P being polyester film. I have NO IDEA if they actually sound different. My understanding is that the 225P is the traditionally desirable upgrade..
2: They are still cheap! & generally much cheaper from Mouser Electronics than from sellers on Ebay, or boutique guitar/amp parts retailers. (Although one guy on Ebay was selling them for about $4.00 with free shipping, which is a little cheaper than Mouser @ about $1.00 + $5.00 shipping...) So don't pay too much!
Just for some perspective;
- The OP had no idea what value the caps were! He would certainly have noticed a difference in value more than type.. I'd like to know the value of the pots also. Normally they'd be 500k in an LP, but you never know, & some are not marked well, so the OP may not have known.
This thread got a bit mean. - there was no need for all that. People shouldn't be so dismissive of others ideas. Both sides made some good points;
- A: I shouldn't assume you can't hear it because I can't hear it.
- B: It is highly likely that; for most people, if they expect a boutique cap to sound better, they will perceive it to sound better. This is not an insult, just something we know about the way humans hear. (& it doesn't mean they DON'T sound different, just that it's hard to tell..)
To finally resolve this would require truly blind tests of caps of different construction, which have been measured to be the exact same value.
Short of that, - if you can afford it, I guess there's nothing wrong with just throwing a more expensive cap in your guitar, - but there's no sense in anyone who can't easily afford it agonizing over it. - There are numerous upgrades you might want to do to a guitar before one that makes so small a change.
Also - there's quite a difference between spending $4.00 or $10.00 on a component that normally costs from $0.04 to $0.50 & spending $75.00 !!! (It better be the holy grail of tone..)
______________________________________________________________________________
P.S. Re: Orange Drops, to whom it may concern;
1: There is a difference in construction between 715P & 225P "Orange Drops" the 715P being polypropylene film & 225P being polyester film. I have NO IDEA if they actually sound different. My understanding is that the 225P is the traditionally desirable upgrade..
2: They are still cheap! & generally much cheaper from Mouser Electronics than from sellers on Ebay, or boutique guitar/amp parts retailers. (Although one guy on Ebay was selling them for about $4.00 with free shipping, which is a little cheaper than Mouser @ about $1.00 + $5.00 shipping...) So don't pay too much!
Last edited:
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
But as others have said, It is almost impossible for a test that is not blind to be reliable..
-- & I would add; ESPECIALLY in the situation you describe! ;
- if you can only hear it after a long while of STRAINING to hear it on a guitar that you know has it, then how can you be sure you're not convincing yourself that you hear it??
Now, I don't know what would be wrong with a test where somebody plays a variety of notes with the tone control @ a variety of settings, for a variety of caps, but if you must do it by playing the guitar, the only scientific way, would be to have someone else install the caps & not tell you which one it is, & go back & forth a few times, always not knowing which cap you're using.
(you could still use some kind of switch inserted in the tone control circuit, so you wouldn't have to open & close the guitar, & solder repeatedly..)
If you could reliably identify the different caps under these conditions..
- then you win, you're right.
but please don't say you have already done this. - what you are doing is not like this at all.
Now like I was saying; if you are considering spending $4.00 or $10.00 to upgrade a cap, you can probably live without scientific proof, but if you are considering spending large sums of money, I'd want to know for sure it was making a difference large enough to clearly hear..
But as others have said, It is almost impossible for a test that is not blind to be reliable..
-- & I would add; ESPECIALLY in the situation you describe! ;
- if you can only hear it after a long while of STRAINING to hear it on a guitar that you know has it, then how can you be sure you're not convincing yourself that you hear it??
Now, I don't know what would be wrong with a test where somebody plays a variety of notes with the tone control @ a variety of settings, for a variety of caps, but if you must do it by playing the guitar, the only scientific way, would be to have someone else install the caps & not tell you which one it is, & go back & forth a few times, always not knowing which cap you're using.
(you could still use some kind of switch inserted in the tone control circuit, so you wouldn't have to open & close the guitar, & solder repeatedly..)
If you could reliably identify the different caps under these conditions..
- then you win, you're right.
but please don't say you have already done this. - what you are doing is not like this at all.
Now like I was saying; if you are considering spending $4.00 or $10.00 to upgrade a cap, you can probably live without scientific proof, but if you are considering spending large sums of money, I'd want to know for sure it was making a difference large enough to clearly hear..
J
Jessie Sammler
Guest
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
I prefer the lemon drop capacitors, or sometime the peppermint.
I prefer the lemon drop capacitors, or sometime the peppermint.
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
I have actually read the entire thread, & some additional resources.
I am not trying to convince you that caps of different construction CANNOT sound different. I understand a whole bunch of the technical reasons why they MIGHT sound different.
- The point is that many of these differences would produce differences below the threshold of human hearing, & possibly beyond measurement, & that differences in cap VALUE are much easier to hear.
- So if the upgrade cap in question is considerably expensive, one would want to be sure it was making an audible difference, no?
- & Surely you don't deny that when listening for small changes, people's expectation can affect the perception they report?
- This is a well established scientific concept, & must be controlled for to achieve meaningful results. It works this way when testing new drug therapies, New vs. Classic Coke, different speakers, headphones, etc.
- You have to use a valid comparison; a "control" to compare to.
- If we do such a test and you can repeatedly tell the difference, & I cannot, then that is a difference in our hearing which I would not deny.
- but you have not done such a test, in fact you admit that you can barely tell the difference after a long while of playing a guitar that you know to have a certain cap in it... - A METHOD VIRTUALLY GUARANTEED TO SKEW YOUR PERCEPTION TOWARDS THE DESIRED RESULT!
- Someone who has spent $100.00 on a boutique cap is going to really WANT to hear a difference.
- None of this means at all that it's IMPOSSIBLE for there to be a difference. I never said that.
- I'm just saying before someone else decides to spend a lot of money on an upgrade cap they should perform, or have access to a valid test, demonstrating that it will change their sound for the better, & not just rely on anecdotal, unscientific, possibly biased, opinion.
- For cheap caps, screw it, switch 'em all day, what have you got to lose?
-----------------------------------------------------------
- Also - I don't buy your kind of "science vs. art" argument about science/models not being able to predict everything; that only means they are imperfect models. (You're right sometimes there are too many variables) but that doesn't mean that using scientific testing NEVER yields valid results.
- I have witnessed what you speak of myself: Some engineer spends a lot of time & effort trying to make a sound system (or some component) sound perfectly flat, & with great measurable success, but when people listen to it they don't like it, - so he or she concludes that the listeners must be too stupid to understand what they have achieved. - In reality the engineer has simply ignored a well understood principle of psycho-acoustics; people don't like sound systems flat.
- but we don't conclude from this that science can't give us the answer, it must be a mystery of the cosmos. The engineer was just using bad/incomplete science.
- I think we could design a test that let you play guitar for a while, not knowing which cap you were using... & repeat...
- & you would either know the difference consistently, or not.
- I'm not claiming to predict the result. Maybe you would always hear the difference. That would be a valid, interesting, useful result.
Last edited:
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
OK I'll accept that; given equal sound, you'd rather use the least expensive components.
(It does seem like some people like to use the most expensive of everything...)
- but still if ones EXPECTATION is that the expensive caps you'd rather not have to pay for will sound better, one may perceive them to sound better, to agree with ones expectation.
- We like reality to conform with our predictions; when it does not we experience discomfort; "cognitive dissonance" So we want to perceive what we expect to perceive.
- To get an accurate result, we would need to "filter-out" for this tendency...
- Using some form of "blind" testing.
For choosing a cap for a guitar, especially among affordable alternatives, I'm sure none of this really matters, as long as we are all happy with our guitars in the end.
But if I were trying to make a recommendation (concerning very expensive caps) to everyone who may read this forum, or if I were going to start producing a bunch of guitars, I'd want to have a more scientific answer.
(I actually have no opinion about which sounds best, I've just been talking about what would be the best method to find out.)
- There's a pretty good Youtube guitar-tone-cap test video, but maybe we should all get together and do a big scientific guitar cap experiment?
- Or not, & just go back to practicing our guitars!
OK I'll accept that; given equal sound, you'd rather use the least expensive components.
(It does seem like some people like to use the most expensive of everything...)
- but still if ones EXPECTATION is that the expensive caps you'd rather not have to pay for will sound better, one may perceive them to sound better, to agree with ones expectation.
- We like reality to conform with our predictions; when it does not we experience discomfort; "cognitive dissonance" So we want to perceive what we expect to perceive.
- To get an accurate result, we would need to "filter-out" for this tendency...
- Using some form of "blind" testing.
For choosing a cap for a guitar, especially among affordable alternatives, I'm sure none of this really matters, as long as we are all happy with our guitars in the end.
But if I were trying to make a recommendation (concerning very expensive caps) to everyone who may read this forum, or if I were going to start producing a bunch of guitars, I'd want to have a more scientific answer.
(I actually have no opinion about which sounds best, I've just been talking about what would be the best method to find out.)
- There's a pretty good Youtube guitar-tone-cap test video, but maybe we should all get together and do a big scientific guitar cap experiment?
- Or not, & just go back to practicing our guitars!
dominus
King Midas to Cheap Guitars
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
Haven't seen the peppermint ones, but the lemon drops are on E-Bay.
Haven't seen the peppermint ones, but the lemon drops are on E-Bay.
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
I don't know, but I think we're going to make that guy really sick...
- I certainly hope the OP figured out his issue long ago..
I didn't really think you were trying to MAKE people use PIOs :
"Buy them or else!"
I'm just fascinated by the topic, & by this type of topic; ( @ What bit-rate do we encode mp3s, can we hear things on a vinyl record we can't hear on CD? does a $10,000.00 stereo really sound better than a $2,000.00 one? only to some people? how many people? etc. )
I also find it interesting that sometimes when people claim to perceive something that "science" or engineering suggests shouldn't be there, we are often able to measure it later with better methods.
- "OK, I guess those people weren't crazy..."
- then again we can also perceive some things wrongly..
- I'm not planning on designing a large scale study anytime soon..
- From my own limited experiments, & from listening to the Youtube video, I don't think that I personally can tell a difference.
- Therefore in future projects I will use caps that I find most available, affordable, & easiest to work with.
I don't know, but I think we're going to make that guy really sick...
- I wasn't saying that YOU were saying that ^ it was just an example. This thread has become somewhat of a discussion about whether & how different types of caps sound different.
- I certainly hope the OP figured out his issue long ago..
I didn't really think you were trying to MAKE people use PIOs :
"Buy them or else!"
I'm just fascinated by the topic, & by this type of topic; ( @ What bit-rate do we encode mp3s, can we hear things on a vinyl record we can't hear on CD? does a $10,000.00 stereo really sound better than a $2,000.00 one? only to some people? how many people? etc. )
I also find it interesting that sometimes when people claim to perceive something that "science" or engineering suggests shouldn't be there, we are often able to measure it later with better methods.
- "OK, I guess those people weren't crazy..."
- then again we can also perceive some things wrongly..
- I'm not planning on designing a large scale study anytime soon..
- From my own limited experiments, & from listening to the Youtube video, I don't think that I personally can tell a difference.
- Therefore in future projects I will use caps that I find most available, affordable, & easiest to work with.
Last edited:
Sporky McGuffin
New member
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
Sorry, but that's downright wrong. Science is based on observation, testing, hypotheses and evidence.
Axioms are proven to be true, and exist only in pure mathematics and certain branches of logic.
Sorry, but that's downright wrong. Science is based on observation, testing, hypotheses and evidence.
Axioms are proven to be true, and exist only in pure mathematics and certain branches of logic.
Sporky McGuffin
New member
Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?
No, axioms are proven true.
You may be using the word "axiom" to describe something that's not an axiom.
No, axioms are proven true.
You may be using the word "axiom" to describe something that's not an axiom.
dominus
King Midas to Cheap Guitars
