Are high output pickups outdated?

[NotDemanic]

I suppose that it's all a matter of taste. Low gain pickups can do metal. I think that back twenty years ago, Mark Morton was using a set of 59's in early Lamb of God stuff. And I would say that even now, Petrucci's pickups would be classified as medium gain.
But there is something about an Alternative 8, JB, Distortion, X2N etc that just hits different.

 

[marcello252]

I feel them different, I'd say more compressed in lack of a better definition, but I end up thinking it must be something about the thinner wire, not the output

 

[Securb]

IMO, a Dimebucker with the volume rolled of does not make a PAF any more than a PAF with a bunch of pedals make a Dimebucker.

I don't think anyone playing a high-gain pickup expects it or even wants it to sound like a PAF. However, a high-gain pickup with the VOL rolled back can definitely cover that PAF sonic territory, especially the Black Winter, which responds to the VOL knob and splits incredibly well.

 

[Burn]

I don't think anyone playing a high-gain pickup expects it or even wants it to sound like a PAF. However, a high-gain pickup with the VOL rolled back can definitely cover that PAF sonic territory, especially the Black Winter, which responds to the VOL knob and splits incredibly well.

All this hype about the Black Winter set is wild. On paper, they look like super overwound pickups in the vein of Invaders and such, but many experienced members here speak to their versatility. I might end up getting a set if/when GAS strikes again some day.

 

[Securb]

I think the Black Winter is one of the best pickups in Seymour Duncan's history and the worst named and marketed. None of the guys I know who are playing them and have had success with the Black Winters are Black or Death Metal guys. Most of them are playing heavier styles of metal but in the Metallica, Pantera, Korn or Masterdon type of realm. I just used mine on a hairband track in the studio, and they sound great.

And the BWn seldom gets talked about, and it is a monster pickup.

 

[Mincer]

I think overall, it can be hard to come up with a name for a pickup that describes it properly. If the name is too broad, people assume it can't do any one thing really well. Pigeon-hole it, and lots of people outside that genre ignore it. I think companies tend to go with what their best shot is...and dark metal is pretty damn popular right now. I think if it came out 25 years ago, when that music was still out of the mainstream, it might be named something different.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I think the Black Winter is one of the best pickups in Seymour Duncan's history and the worst named and marketed. None of the guys I know who are playing them and have had success with the Black Winters are Black or Death Metal guys. Most of them are playing heavier styles of metal but in the Metallica, Pantera, Korn or Masterdon type of realm. I just used mine on a hairband track in the studio, and they sound great.

And the BWn seldom gets talked about, and it is a monster pickup.

I used them to play Swedish-style Melodic Death and Death and Roll and that sorta stuff.

Granted, it's not really like super Trve Kvlt Death or Black Metal, but it is Scandinavian in style, LOL, so I suppose my playing-style is not far off from who the target demographic is.

So while I don't disagree that they can be versatile, I sometimes feel that can also someitmes undermine how heavy and br00tal they can get too. I think they're marketed well, personally. I don't think they could market a 16K triple ceramic magnet any other way.

 

[Securb]

Yeah my band is pretty heavy also. But I have used them with the classic rock cover band and they worked awesome.

 

[STLMTLHD79]

I have found over the course of the past few years that high-output ceramic pickups are definitely not my thing anymore. The Duncan Distoriton to be specific, its all fizz with a high-gain head. With that said, high output pickups sound really good with something mid gain, such as a JCM 800 or Silver Jubelie. I DO still dig the Duncan Custom, as it is a small ceramic mag-still quite hot, but still has great dynamics/versatility. I had a set of black winters in an Ibanez about 5 years ago, but never got into the guitar. Maybe i will have to give them another try with a different guitar.

These days, i have mostly been using medium to vintage-hot pickups (everything in the "Custom" family, PATB1, 59, SNS, Slash 2.0, Screamin Demon) as i mostly play traditional and Thrash metal. A high gain head with a good overdrive does wonders for medium output pickups.

 

[misterwhizzy]

you can still chicken pick like a mofo if your amp has the headroom to handle the output

Maybe YOU can.

 

[weepingminotaur]

I think overall, it can be hard to come up with a name for a pickup that describes it properly. If the name is too broad, people assume it can't do any one thing really well. Pigeon-hole it, and lots of people outside that genre ignore it. I think companies tend to go with what their best shot is...and dark metal is pretty damn popular right now. I think if it came out 25 years ago, when that music was still out of the mainstream, it might be named something different.

For sure. The BW is a funny case because they went so hard on the ov fire and void vibe outside of the specs -- the name, the lettering on the pickup case, the description. But then the happy accident occurred: guitarists started to use it and quickly figured out that it had many more versatile applications than just black metal (though of course it does your Black Dahlia Murder and Behemoth and so on very well, as you'd expect). I don't remember the release history; did it come after or before the Nazgul? Because the Nazgul got the same metal promo but it is definitely more of a one-trick pony (but good at that trick!).

 

[Bill Dennis]

Between a Seth, PG, 59, JB or a Custom I can make any guitar work. As a practical matter it is just a choice between PAF and hot. The Seth/59/PG lets me pick how bright I want it. The Custom/JB let me pick hoe much midrange I want. That's really all there is to it for humbuckers

 

[Burn]

For sure. The BW is a funny case because they went so hard on the ov fire and void vibe outside of the specs -- the name, the lettering on the pickup case, the description. But then the happy accident occurred: guitarists started to use it and quickly figured out that it had many more versatile applications than just black metal (though of course it does your Black Dahlia Murder and Behemoth and so on very well, as you'd expect). I don't remember the release history; did it come after or before the Nazgul? Because the Nazgul got the same metal promo but it is definitely more of a one-trick pony (but good at that trick!).

The name "Nazgul" still makes me LOL on the inside a little bit. Great sounding pickup, yes. It's my favourite of the Sentient, Pegasus, and Nazgul trio.

 

[AdrianSD]

And the BWn seldom gets talked about, and it is a monster pickup.

This++. BWn, 59n and Dimarzio Gravity Storm neck can cover everything and anything from my point of view.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

The Black Winter was named after an Amorphis song which was fitting for the whole Scandinavian vibe, FWIW.

I think it was released at the same time as the Nazgul? I believe Keith Merrow had a hand in voicing both.

Both have got awesome names, BTW.

I like the 'Winter better than the Nazgul. It's funny because you guys mention it's more versatile (not saying it isn't), yet, I find the 'Winter sounds rawer and more aggressive than the Nazgul which I found a little polished and polite doing the br00tz by comparison. JMO.

 

[weepingminotaur]

The name "Nazgul" still makes me LOL on the inside a little bit. Great sounding pickup, yes. It's my favourite of the Sentient, Pegasus, and Nazgul trio.

TBH I am still trying to figure out how they got away with that name without getting sued by the Tolkien estate!

 

[weepingminotaur]

The Black Winter was named after an Amorphis song which was fitting for the whole Scandinavian vibe, FWIW.

I think it was released at the same time as the Nazgul? I believe Keith Merrow had a hand in voicing both.

Both have got awesome names, BTW.

I like the 'Winter better than the Nazgul. It's funny because you guys mention it's more versatile (not saying it isn't), yet, I find the 'Winter sounds rawer and more aggressive than the Nazgul which I found a little polished and polite doing the br00tz by comparison. JMO.

Rex, you are the first person I've ever heard use the word "polite" to describe the Nazgul!

 

[alex1fly]

I tried so many things over the last 6 years. All the outputs, all the voicings, all the magnets, passive, active, polepieces, high gain amps, low gain amps, modeling, IRs, VSTs, Dimarzios, Duncans, BKPs, EMGs, Fenders, stock pickups, and so on. My takeaway is that low-medium output works best in the most situations including high gain tones. You get beautiful harmonic content, responsiveness in your cleans, and then when its time to get into saturated tones then you lean on your pedals and amp. There's no real difference between the tone and response you get from a high output pickup slamming through a simple signal chain than you do from properly gain staging and EQing your signal chain. The latter takes more experimenting but once you get there there's no losing that knowledge and we're talking like... the right boost pedal before the right distortion (or stacking a couple of overdrives) and an EQ pedal before or after it. Two extra pedals and some time playing with the pedal order. The boost is absolutely crucial to getting the saturation and the EQ is absolutely crucial in tailoring the frequencies that you want to hear. High output pickups on the other hand do offer a shortcut but you lose a lot of nuance when you aren't in hard rock/metal territory, plus if you go direct into an interface you often overload it and run out of headroom so you have to turn down anyways with a pad or the guitar volume.

So "outdated" I dunno. Debatable. But "gear that I didn't find a use for", sure I'll support that. No knock on anyone using high output pups, I just found them to be very limiting and time and time again they gave me a difference rather than a benefit.

 

[uOpt]

OK, so how do the Nazgul and the BW differ in sound?

 

[Rex_Rocker]

OK, so how do the Nazgul and the BW differ in sound?

Nazgul is brighter, slightly more open, high output, but not blisteringly high output like the BW.

The BW's top end is not as open, but it feels grindier (hence my sentiment on it feeling more aggressive), and it's REALLY high output. It's one of the highest output pickups I've personally tried.

Both have got a tight sorta rolled off low-end, and both are mid forward, just with the mids voiced different.

I feel like the Nazgul is sorta like a scalpel, and the BW is sorta like a chainsaw.