Are higher output pickups really darker?

[R3-AUA]

I recently read an article that argues that high output humbuckers will sound darker than low output buckers. Apparently the higher DC resistance compresses the sound and darkens the tone somehow. Now I don't know much about pickups but the JB comes to mind and from clips I've heard it definitely doesn't sound dark at all...quite trebly in my opinion. And the JB is a high output pickup.

So is there some truth to this? Also can someone explain what reviewers mean with "open" vs "compressed"?

 

[mjsmanahan35]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

Seymour Duncan Blackouts AHB-1 Active
https://youtu.be/zgIQkYK_yWA
https://youtu.be/jh89I27Nh08

Seymour Duncan JB Bridge Passive
https://youtu.be/1ve4t_PxWrA
https://youtu.be/Oruf42vYWrM

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[darthphineas]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

I recently read an article that argues that high output humbuckers will sound darker than low output buckers. Apparently the higher DC resistance compresses the sound and darkens the tone somehow. Now I don't know much about pickups but the JB comes to mind and from clips I've heard it definitely doesn't sound dark at all...quite trebly in my opinion. And the JB is a high output pickup.

So is there some truth to this? Also can someone explain what reviewers mean with "open" vs "compressed"?

No. Higher output does not always result in a dark pickup. Nor does higher resistance. It "can", but doesn't have to.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

The way a pickup sounds is all in the wind, more than anything else. But to get to high output on a standard bobbin you need to use very thin wire which tends to emphasise the lows and mids much more. Pickup winders tend to use the brighter mags and wind much more carefully to retain highs in high output pickups.

Open sounding pickups tend to be the lower output ones, although there are ways to keep high output pickups clearer. Open essentially means you get a wider frequency spectrum present but with good crisp highs too. The mids aren't overly full and the notes have a crisp attack.
Compression in itself is more part of an amp, but pickups that mute the top end that you get on the note strike often get called compressed because you don't have that falloff as the note sustains. Hence they seem like there is a more even sound the same way you would get if a compressor was lopping off the spike.

 

[R3-AUA]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

The way a pickup sounds is all in the wind, more than anything else. But to get to high output on a standard bobbin you need to use very thin wire which tends to emphasise the lows and mids much more. Pickup winders tend to use the brighter mags and wind much more carefully to retain highs in high output pickups.

Open sounding pickups tend to be the lower output ones, although there are ways to keep high output pickups clearer. Open essentially means you get a wider frequency spectrum present but with good crisp highs too. The mids aren't overly full and the notes have a crisp attack.
Compression in itself is more part of an amp, but pickups that mute the top end that you get on the note strike often get called compressed because you don't have that falloff as the note sustains. Hence they seem like there is a more even sound the same way you would get if a compressor was lopping off the spike.

Thanks for the explanation! I knew there was probably more to this then the article suggested. So, output only (or maybe predominantly) determines how readily an amp distorts and has no real effect on the tone profile?

Also, maybe a silly question, but what's considered "high output"? A DC resistent of...?

 

[AlexR]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

Its too complicated to generalise. You tend to find the higher output pickups being darker on average......but it doesn't mean that you can't have some having good high frequency response. The way the frequencies are present do depend on the wire and how many turns are there.

High and low output are measured in volts......well mV to be more precise. K is a reading of wire length essentially, assuming you know the gauge of wire in a pickup. Its all relative....... 9k in a strat pickup can be seen to be high output, but in a humbucker that is vintage range.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

9k in a strat pickup can be seen to be high output, but in a humbucker that is vintage range.

Mostly because 9K in a humbucker is the total of two coils, so roughly 4.5K each, while a single Strat pickup would be 4-5K on average.

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

There are so many exceptions to that 'rule,' it's hard to call them exceptions.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

A clear sounding Strat pickup is usually closer to 6k, while a humbucker is typically around 7.5k for a similar degree of brightness. A Strat pickup wound to 7.5k is usually not bright, however. A couple reasons why you can have a bright 7.5k humbucker but not a Strat pickups.

The first thing... when you have two separate coils side by side the capacitance cuts in half, versus when you have one larger coil, like with a Strat pickup. That halved capacitance increases the resonant peak of the humbucker over what it would be with an equivalent Strat pickup.

The second reason is that having the string receiving information from two points along the same string causes cancellations of frequencies, or "comb filtering" which notches out sets of frequencies in the upper mids. The notches "scoop" the upper mids in a different frequency ranges, putting more emphasis on treble frequencies. The thinner a pickup is, the less this comb filtering effects the pickup's response, and a humbucker is obviously somewhat wider than a Strat pickup. A Strat's "notch" positions are a more dramatic example of comb filtering resulting in a treble emphasis. They have a large "scoop" that leads to that "quack" sound they're known for.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

I wouldn't say the JB is dark, true, but I wouldn't say it's trebly either. If you compare it to, say, a '59, you can hear its "brightness" comes from lower down the spectrum (high mids, rather than actual treble).

JMO

 

[stratguy23]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

High output pickups involve more turns of wire in the wind.

All other things being equal, what generally happens with more turns is that the midrange starts filling up, which can be interpreted both as "dark" and "compressed".

To restore high end lost by more wire turns, pickup makers will use different magnets, most notably ceramic.

"Open" generally refers to some scooping in the mids. You'll get that more often from low output pickups, which have fewer turns of wire.

As others have stated, there are many exceptions to the rule, and skilled pickup makers know how to balance the recipe of wind and magnet (and other materials such as bobbin, cover, spacer, etc.) to achieve desired tones.

The most useful way to consider pickup output, in my opinion, is in the context of the signal chain. Do you want the pickup to do most of the work, or saturate the preamp? Then high output is the way to go. If the player wants to do more of the work (playing dynamics, etc.) vs. electronics, or if you prefer other ways of increasing output (pedals, amp settings), etc., then low output is the way to go.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

Yes, gain can compress your guitar tone. If you have a high output pickup going into a high gain amp, you will get some natural compression. However, there are so many examples of high output pickups that are bright, that as someone else pointed out, it hardly seems to be an exception to a rule.

 

[EDX]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

2 words Duncan Dimebucker

from duncan mv output chart:

SH-4 JB Model 737mV
SH-6b Duncan Distortion 792mV
SH-8b Invader 813mV
SH-13 Dimebucker 1160mV
LW-Must LiveWire Dave Mustaine,b 1368mV


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the next hotter bridge pickup in mV output to the dimebucker is an active pickup, that's how stupid hot the dimebucker is and it's a pickup someone would never call dark sounding

​

 

[dave74]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

2 words Duncan Dimebucker

booyah! I was going to post; One word,,,,,Dimebucker. You basically beat me to it though. lol

That sh13 is just pure face-ripping aggression. Single notes especially just jump-out so solid and clear for a pickup with that much output.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

2 words Duncan Dimebucker

from duncan mv output chart:

SH-4 JB Model 737mV
SH-6b Duncan Distortion 792mV
SH-8b Invader 813mV
SH-13 Dimebucker 1160mV
LW-Must LiveWire Dave Mustaine,b 1368mV


​

the next hotter bridge pickup in mV output to the dimebucker is an active pickup, that's how stupid hot the dimebucker is and it's a pickup someone would never call dark sounding

​

my EMG81 is DEFINITELY weaker than my DMZ SuperDist (as was the livewire non-metal), which is rated at 420mV go figure. DMZ's highest pup is the X2N rated at 510 mV, maybe smth is really off here?

 

[Mincer]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

I think there are so many factors..the magnet, the wind, the poles or blades...There is a recipe involved with every model, and everything in that recipe has something to do with how it will sound. I can say that higher output pickups are generally less touch-sensitive, and will compress the sound more, but there are too many exceptions to say that they are all dark.

 

[EDX]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

duncan and dimazio measure mV in very different ways, apparently DiM plays single notes and makes an average from all individual measures while duncan strokes all strings at once, also we don't know what input impedance DiM uses but i think the input impedance guys at duncan R&D dept was posted and corroborated by a user who measured a Seth Lover set and got same reading as duncan chart

 

[thanaton]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

Those mV stats are worthless. A pickup doesn't have an inherent mV output the way it has an inherent inductance or resistance, etc. The mV is the product of V = I * Z (voltage equals current times impedance), so you know V (but not even whether it's Vpp or Vrms), and you don't know what the breakdown of I or Z are.

In pickup design, Z, the impedance, is decided by the coil, which the DC resistance alludes to, but doesn't describe accurately. The current I is decided by the magnetic geometry of the pickup, so if you use a stronger magnet, and put the coils really close to the strings, you get more current. The total voltage you get depends on how much current and impedance is there, so in the case of a Dimebucker, what they might lack in impedance they somehow make up for with added current, by using a large ceramic magnet, for example.

The 16k DC resistance of the Dimebucker suggests it has a lot of turns of wire, but if they wound it with 45 AWG, the resistance is due to the small wire size, not the number of turns. I've seen it said that the Dimebucker specifically has a high resonant peak, strongly suggesting that it is using fewer turns of tiny wire in order to get that high DC resistance. The Dimebucker looks like it borrows heavily from Bill Lawrence's designs, and Bill Lawrence exercised this layout with Microcoils and some other models he made.

 

[vinnie1971]

Are higher output pickups really darker?

Not always. Depends what highout put means.
Listen out for demos of DiMarzio Super 2 they are very bright.
Cushin Gakki high gain pickups that look like clones of the above also bright shrill and not at all dark.
It's not just DCR it's Henries and other factors that determine "high output".
Take a Gibson 498T DCR is 13k but it's not high output and it's very bright - I'd call it a moderate output pickup.


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[R3-AUA]

Re: Are higher output pickups really darker?

So I guess this is why generally speaking ceramics are used to balance out that "darkened" sound in a higher output pickup? Or maybe they can use a thicker wire too to counter said darkened tone. So technically speaking, and going back to my previous question, DCR doesn't determine tone profile, right?