Are lower output pickups really more dynamic?

[Rex_Rocker]

I have always wondered about this. I remember recording DI's with my Black Winter, the peaks and valleys look very standard for any pickup I've ever attempted to record DI's from.

Actives are a different thing. Especially EMG's. Those have got that brickwall limiting effect caused by the preamp's power supply. As soon as you raise them to 18V, you can clearly see the waveforms become more dynamic with more of a difference between the highest peaks and the rest of the playing.

But with passives? I have never done this experiment myself, personally. But I have always felt that the dynamics I gain from using PAF-types are negated (though I don't know to what extent) by the fact that I have to raise the gain for them not sound undergained.

And this is what I mean... once you match the gain levels for both... is it really the case?

Anyone have some info regarding this so that I can understand what makes a low output pickup more dynamic? Maybe some graphs? Waveforms? Some video with similar information?

I understand how inductance affects the frequency response... but the dynamics? Please explain.

 

[GuitarStv]

But with passives? I have never done this experiment myself, personally. But I have always felt that the dynamics I gain from using PAF-types are negated (though I don't know to what extent) by the fact that I have to raise the gain for them not sound undergained.

Well . . . yeah.

If you raise gain levels as you're doing you can reduce the dynamics of any pickup. If you keep the gain levels the same, then you'll notice that lower gain pickups typically have more dynamics.

As you've discovered, dynamics aren't always desired - for a great many of guitar sounds you want to limit dynamics from a pickup.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Well . . . yeah.

If you raise gain levels as you're doing you can reduce the dynamics of any pickup. If you keep the gain levels the same, then you'll notice that lower gain pickups typically have more dynamics.

As you've discovered, dynamics aren't always desired - for a great many of guitar sounds you want to limit dynamics from a pickup.

That's not what I meant. I agree, that's pretty obvious.

I meant once the gain is matched. Let's say you're not driving a distorted amp. You're recording DI's. You're getting them both so that they peak at a healthy level to avoid as much floor noise as possible without clipping the input. Would low output pickups once the gain is matched be still "more dynamic"? Meaning there would be more difference between the loudest playing and the quietest playing.

Because if not, they are not more dynamic. They are just quieter. At least technically speaking.

But maybe there is something technical I am not understanding.

 

[Clint 55]

Because if not, they are not more dynamic. They are just quieter. At least technically speaking.

But maybe there is something technical I am not understanding.

Guitar lingo refers to pickup dynamics as how the tone, mainly the top end, will sound differently in response to pick attack. Kind of a lively sparky effect. They're not saying an 8k hum will sound pp if you pick soft and ff if you pick hard while a 20k pickup sounds mf no matter how hard you pick.

If you fully saturate both types of pickups, they'll respond similarly. If you compare them clean or lightly saturated, the difference in 'dynamics' is more apparent.

 

[Mincer]

Yes.
Higher output pickups send a hot signal into the amp, allowing the preamp to squish the signal taking the dynamics away. Thing is, for many types of music, that is perfect. Modern rock and metal isn't very dynamic music, and you want consistency more than anything. Older forms of music, like blues & jazz, has tons more dynamics, so that is where vintage output shines.

 

[AlexR]

Lower output pickups will have a comparatively higher treble content, which will be what cuts through. They also will have a more immediate attack on the note.
Of course the fact that high output pickups will have a stronger signal means that actual amount of signal can vary more in terms of absolute voltage. But the % change will be greater for the low output one.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

So... not sure... what would happen if we plug them both into a clean amp that has the headroom to handle both and match the gains and volume levels, then the difference would not be in responsiveness volume-wise to loud and quiet playing, but rather, in EQ, and, indirectly, to attack voicing and whatnot? Or would the PAF's be actually louder when playing loud and quieter when playing quiet than the Black Winter?

 

[Rex_Rocker]

But the % change will be greater for the low output one.

That's exactly what I'm asking. What is it that gives them the greater dynamic range? In terms of physics-electric-electronics?

Because I understand how inductance lowers the resonant peak and that's exactly what makes the higher output pickups' frequency response narrower. But what happens electrically to limit dynamics?

 

[Clint 55]

So... not sure... what would happen if we plug them both into a clean amp that has the headroom to handle both and match the gains and volume levels, then the difference would not be in responsiveness volume-wise to loud and quiet playing, but rather, in EQ, and, indirectly, to attack voicing and whatnot?

Yes

Or would the PAF's be actually louder when playing loud and quieter when playing quiet than the Black Winter?

No. Take a Black winter clean and barely touch the pick across the strings. Pianissimo. Now smash a chord. Fortissimo. Higher output in the pickup doesn't literally compress the volume response - the distortion box does that, but not a higher output pickup.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Yes



No. Take a Black winter clean and barely touch the pick across the strings. Pianissimo. Now smash a chord. Fortissimo. Higher output in the pickup doesn't literally compress the volume response - the distortion box does that, but not a higher output pickup.

That's what I suspected.

 

[GuitarStv]

I meant once the gain is matched.

The majority of guitar amps are designed to not stay clean (or are used with distortion pedals of some sort) . . . so there's usually a pretty limited headrooom that you're working with. In that case, low output pickups are always wider dynamic range and higher output pickups are much more compressed.

If you have managed to find a guitar amp that doesn't do this and can gain match then the pickups you're using matter very little for range. I'm not sure what amp that would be though. Even really clean amps like a JC120 or a twin will break up (and lose dynamic range) when slamming the front with a superdistortion.

 

[Mincer]

It is the preamp that compresses the signal, not the pickup. There is limited dynamic range going into an amp, so when a hot signal hits the input, it squeezes down, especially if you have a lot of preamp gain. Boost pedals can do the same thing as a high output pickup.

 

[freefrog]

I understand how inductance affects the frequency response... but the dynamics? Please explain.

High inductance transducers have more "inertia", so to speak. Slower attack and decay, longer sustain before release. Hence slow transients felt as "compressed".

Now, low parasitic capacitance contributes to a better dynamics.

Low eddy currents too. Not to mention magnetic strenght.

Asymetric coils in a humbucker can help as well.

IOW that's not a simple question, IMHO (precisely because it doesn't involve one single factor IME. YMMV).

 

[freefrog]

FWIW, I share below the impulse response of a hi-gain / high inductance humbucker (around 11H) VS a low inductance Filter'Tron (1.6H if memory serves me; maybe it's 1.4H).

https://ibb.co/VvF2kxG

Should make obvious that a Filter'Tron has not only a faster attack but also a stronger one, relatively speaking.

NOTES:

*Each color illustrates the response of a coil, when electrically stimulated (red = one bobbin of the pickup, green = the other one).

*Vertical axis = dB.
Horizontal axis = time in milliseconds.

*Pictures trimmed for questions of intellectual property. Thx for your understanding.

 

[Clint 55]

What type of units are each axis? And what are each line? What good does a vague graphic do?

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Interesting! That's exactly the kind of info I wanted to learn.

 

[AlexR]

The thing is with a high output humbucker the wind itself supresses the treble content due to cancellation. As that bit is the key for perceived attack and the main part of 'dynamics' as people want it, low output pickups will certainly keep the treble bit intact.

 

[freefrog]

I share below another pic, trimmed in the same way for the reason explained in post 14.

Upper pic = impulse response of a P.A.F. replica with a low inner stray capacitance. Albeit it hosts symetrically wound coils, one coil is a wee bit faster than the other in its response to electrical stimulation.

Bottom pic = another P.A.F. replica with a similar inductance but a higher parasitic capacitance. The coil whose response is pictured in red is a tad slower. The other coil whose response is pictured in green delivers a tiny bit less amplitude.

When played, the humbucker in the upper pic sounds more single coilish and the other one seems more "compressed".

https://ibb.co/D7tVFYv

FWIW : One man's trash is another man's gold...

 

[Rex_Rocker]

What type of units are each axis? And what are each line? What good does a vague graphic do?

I believe it's dB on the Y axis and ms on the X axis if I'm reading it like a regular IR.

 

[freefrog]

Yes, of course, the pics in my previous posts show output level on the Y axis and time on the X axis . If these screenshots weren't like those of regular IR's, I would have told it... A few minutes after having posted it, I had edited my message 14 to add explicative notes about that , anyway...

To put in perspective my post 18 about stray capacitance as having an effect on dynamics, here is incidentally a bit of rambling from a boutique winder:

https://youtu.be/9dy3XKEYER8?t=122

He mentions "capacitive loss" very allusively but that's actually the main problem behind what he says about dynamics in this section of his video.

Parasitic capacitance and inductance have similar consequences, BTW: both shift down the resonant peak, making passive pickups less bright... and simultaneously affect the speed / amplitude of their attack.

And that's not true only for pickups, BTW: put a long capacitive cable after a Fuzz Face, measure its impulse response and you'll see a slower attack with less peak amplitude while the pedal will sound bassier.

Foucault currents (eddy currents) could also be evoked more in details here because they are another cause of perceived "compression": a pickup with a cover is meant to have a slower and slightly more squashed impulse response than without cover in the same time than it sounds duller, because of eddy currents...

Non limitative list: some magnets make a pickup "faster" and/or with stronger peaks than others - as presupposed by all the discourse about magnetic alloys.

IOW, IME and IMO, there's definitively several interactive factors at work in "dynamics" (including the reaction of the input stage evoked in some previous posts). The aliveness of treble mentioned in other answers above is directly correlated to these factors but has not a single cause - nor is a cause itself to me: I rather see it as "the other side of dynamics". YMMV.