Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

[Funky P]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

I believe (and someone correct me if I am wrong) that the term "scatterwinding" is often used incorrectly just as the word "tremolo" is (referring to a vibrato bar on a guitar).

Actually the term tremolo is used correctly. Vibrato in the instrument world is subtle(usually half a step of less) pitch modulation. Tremolo in singing refers to vibrato, but to more extreme amounts and or poorly control pitch(ie Christina Aguilera) which is exactly what a tremolo bridge does.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

One coil is wound with a few hundred or more turns of wire than the other coil. This opens up the midrange.

True but, in the case of the bridge pickup, only if the slug coil is the hotter coil.

EDIT: Or at least more so -- because the slug coil (assuming everybody here is not doing a Peter Green and flipping the pickup around 180 degrees) If the screw coil is stronger, than that would explain why the PG is pretty bright and has all that sizzle.

Scatter winding is useful for smoothing out the ice pick treble of Strat single coil pickups...it's not so effective with humbuckers.

Not true on second part of that. Any pickup wound in nice, neat, even, tight layers will be very bright/cold/harsh/ice-picky/you get the idea. Any pickup, including humbuckers, that's scattered will be sweeter on top with gutsy, satisfying mids. As a winder myself, I've learned this fact the hard way. If you want sweet top and gutsy mids, scatter the bejesus out of it -- 'bucker, single coil, or whatever. Just make sure you've got good tension on the wind or it will feedback like crazy, another lesson I learned the hard way (Olin can vouch for that).

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

True but, in the case of the bridge pickup, only if the slug coil is the hotter coil.



Not true on second part of that. Any pickup wound in nice, neat, even, tight layers will be very bright/cold/harsh/ice-picky/you get the idea. As a winder myself, I've learned this fact the hard way. If you want sweet top and gutsy mids, scatter the bejesus out of it -- 'bucker, single coil, or whatever. Just make sure you've got good tension on the wind or it will feedback like crazy, another lesson I learned the hard way (Olin can vouch for that).

Lindy Fralin is a friend and we've talked about this alot. I'm not a pickup winder myself. But Lindy has mentioned to me that in his opinion, scatter winding is most beneficial with single coils where you're winding around the actual magnets...and it's less beneficial with humbuckers.

This is probably one of those things where it's a matter of opinion...and a matter of degree.

I really have no experence myself...I've never wound a pickup!:laugh2:

Lew

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Actually the term tremolo is used correctly. Vibrato in the instrument world is subtle(usually half a step of less) pitch modulation. Tremolo in singing refers to vibrato, but to more extreme amounts and or poorly control pitch(ie Christina Aguilera) which is exactly what a tremolo bridge does.

Tremolo is variation in amplitude (volume). Vibrato is variation in pitch.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Lindy Fralin is a friend and we've talked about this alot. I'm not a pickup winder myself. But Lindy has mentioned to me that in his opinion, scatter winding is most beneficial with single coils where you're winding around the actual magnets...and it's less beneficial with humbuckers.

This is probably one of those things where it's a matter of opinion...and a matter of degree.

I really have no experence myself...I've never wound a pickup!:laugh2:

Lew

It may be that it has even MORE of an effect on single coils (which is what I'm going to guess Mr. Fralin was trying to say), but trust me, it is extremely beneficial to humbuckers. I wound a couple neat and smooth and symmetrical 'buckers on my first attempts -- and YIKES! You could cut glass with 'em!

To the extent that it does have more of an effect on singles, it's probably because they are so thin-sounding to begin with that any increase in mids and lows and smoothing of the highs is going to be more dramatic. Scatterwinding brings in more mids and lows, both on a relative scale due to the drop in coil capacitance (which smooths the highs) and on an absolute scale because the coil is physically a little bit wider (at the same number of turns and wire gauge) and thus 'sees' longer wavelengths off the string.

The increase in mids and lows with scatterwinding on a humbucker isn't going to be as dramatic, but the difference in the QUALITY of said mids and lows is every bit as dramatic, as will the smoothing of the highs. How many here have complained about humbuckers with an "ice-picky" top end and hollow mids? Needless to say, a lot. True scatterwinding fixes all that, and in a quick-hurry.

P.S. Remember, scatterwinding is a huge part of what made the PAF's (the good ones) what they are today.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

I hate to burst anyone's bubble but the PAFs were NOT scatterwound. And no Seymour Duncan humbuckers are scatter wound. Including the Pearly Gates.

Scatter winding is only something Seymour does on single coils. Seymour's hand winder in the custom shop is the only winder in this building that anyone scatter winds on.

If a pickup is wound on the Leesona winder, it's not scatter wound. The original PAFs were wound on the Leesona. The Antiquitys, '59s, Pearly Gates, Alnico 2 Pros and Seths are all wound on the Leesona.

None of those pickups are scatter wound.

When you hear about pickup builders who scatter wind humbuckers, that a new thing. That's not vintage correct.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Thanks Evan...I was afraid to say that but maybe comming form you people will listen!

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Wow...way cool info Evan! Thanks alot!

Good to know that Lindy and Seymour agree on this issue, because I know Lindy thinks very highly of Seymour.

He credits Seymour (rightfully, IMO) with starting the whole pickup replacement business and especially with doing the vintage models right.

Lindy told me he and Seymour took part in a pickup symposium once and Lindy said he was a nervous wreck lecturing on pickups in front of Seymour!

Lew

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

What follows is going to sound like silly, anal, hairsplitting, relativistic, political hooey, and maybe it is to some extent, but so be it.

It does depend on what is meant by scatterwound. As I understand it, there are two basic types:

1) Any wind where the traverse of the wire is guided by hand, which will inherently produce more randomness than machine-guided.

2) Deliberately guiding the the traverse in as random and crazy a manner as possible, often more scattered than definition #1 above.

If the PAF's were hand-guided on the traverse (all these years I have assumed they were, but maybe not), then they fit definition #1.

Evan is certainly right that deliberate scatterwinding (def #2) is something new. In those days obviously no-one, Gibson included, was shooting for definition #2 -- they were just trying to get the wire on the bobbin the best and most efficient way they could.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Also, even if they were machine guided back in The Day, the traverse mechanism they used might have had some inconsistencies in it that led to random patterns.

There now -- was I defensive enough? Did I successfully CYA and otherwise shamelessly worm my way out of that one? Let's start a poll on it...

 

[Artie]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

If a pickup is wound on the Leesona winder, it's not scatter wound. The original PAFs were wound on the Leesona. The Antiquitys, '59s, Pearly Gates, Alnico 2 Pros and Seths are all wound on the Leesona.

None of those pickups are scatter wound.

I'm devastated! My Antiquity II Tele bridge isn't scatterwound?

My whole theory of "distributed capacitance" is blown out of the water. :yell:

Why, then, does the dang thing sound so good?

Artie

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

I'm devastated! My Antiquity II Tele bridge isn't scatterwound?
My whole theory of "distributed capacitance" is blown out of the water. :yell:
Why, then, does the dang thing sound so good?
Artie

The Antiquity buckers are wound on the Leesona...Evan was talking about the buckers...not the singles.

 

[Artie]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

The Antiquity buckers are wound on the Leesona...Evan was talking about the buckers...not the singles.

Bless you TGWIF . . . I was sweatin' bullets for a second there.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Hey, thank's to all. I have learned much from everyone and that's always good.

I knew that scatter wound and mismatched coils were not quite the same thing. Sometime ago, I had some boutique PAF style humbuckers made. The guy asked me if I wanted certian features, such as magnet type, mismatched coils, and scatter wound. I knew enough to ask for A2 and probably not mis matched coils, as I planned for an ebony fretboard, but I didn't have a clue about scatter winding. He decided to deliberately scatter wind them. I don't know if it made much diffrence or not, but these are really, really, good sounding humbuckers, particularly in the mids.

 

[Marcel]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

I was wondering what scatterwound has to do with mismatched coils the whole thread and I thought it's my poor english and I understood sacatter wrong. Thanks for clear this up guys!

But wasn't the Borbucker scatterwound?

 

[sufferinrewind]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Vintage PAFs had slightly mixmatched coils because they didn't have a counter to count the amount of turns, it was just an approximation, which is why each PAF pickup had it's own uniqueness. That's where the difference is between Gibson's Classic '57s and the Burstbuckers. The Burstbuckers are vintage wound, meaning the coils aren't wound evenly (one coil is slightly hotter than the other), while the Classic '57s are wound evenly, and, according to Gibson, the even winding of the Classic '57 gives it a more "creamy" tone.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Thanks for the candid info Evan. You could have just as easily let the mysteries play on. I think to a certain degree, scatterwinding is being touted as the magical missing link because some boutique makers don't have sophisticated winders. They have to hand guide the wire (as do I) so it's pretty convenient to say how awesome it is. I'm not saying it ISN'T awesome, because I usually prefer scatterwound pickups. But not always. It's easy for a boutique winder to say "don't buy a brand X, they're all factory machine made, sterile, cold, dead, etc. But MY hand/scatterwound pickups are alive, warm, sweet, etc." And the fact that the A2Pro, Seth, & Antiquities are not scatterwound should prove that there's more to making a sweet, warm pickup than scatterwinding alone. It depends on all the other factors. That being said, the next pickup I'm making is going to be, you guessed it...scatterwound and slightly mismatched.

Great topic BTW!

 

[JeffB]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Tremolo is variation in amplitude (volume). Vibrato is variation in pitch.

:6:

eeeyupppp!

 

[JeffB]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Vintage PAFs had slightly mixmatched coils because they didn't have a counter to count the amount of turns, it was just an approximation, which is why each PAF pickup had it's own uniqueness. That's where the difference is between Gibson's Classic '57s and the Burstbuckers. The Burstbuckers are vintage wound, meaning the coils aren't wound evenly (one coil is slightly hotter than the other), while the Classic '57s are wound evenly, and, according to Gibson, the even winding of the Classic '57 gives it a more "creamy" tone.

Exactly the case. The 57s have a creamier sound in general..tighter high end and bass. It's a very "even" sound. Well balanced. Burstbuckers have a very different sound. More bite, snarl and "sizzle" on top which sounds absolutely evil (ina good way) through a Marshall style amp. Bass frquencies are a little looser. The 1/2 Burstbuckers also have that "honk".

 

[Alvin Lee Fan]

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

So the PGs are definately not scatter-wound. But, are they definately mismatched coils?

I'm on an A2 kick lately and this news just lit my fire