Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

frankfalbo said:
Thanks for the candid info Evan. You could have just as easily let the mysteries play on. I think to a certain degree, scatterwinding is being touted as the magical missing link because some boutique makers don't have sophisticated winders. They have to hand guide the wire (as do I) so it's pretty convenient to say how awesome it is. I'm not saying it ISN'T awesome, because I usually prefer scatterwound pickups. But not always. It's easy for a boutique winder to say "don't buy a brand X, they're all factory machine made, sterile, cold, dead, etc. But MY hand/scatterwound pickups are alive, warm, sweet, etc." And the fact that the A2Pro, Seth, & Antiquities are not scatterwound should prove that there's more to making a sweet, warm pickup than scatterwinding alone. It depends on all the other factors. That being said, the next pickup I'm making is going to be, you guessed it...scatterwound and slightly mismatched.

Great topic BTW!


The effect of scatterwinding, at least as I understand it (whether deliberate or accidental), is at least in part to reduce or otherwise alter the coil capacitance and thus sweeten the highs. (There may be other things that scattering does that I don't know about yet.) The layers of coil criss-cross each other kind of like a ball-of-yarn (as opposed to nice neat rows), so instead of one turn of wire feeding the next with its current leakage (capacitance), it may skip several turns and have spots on its length where it can't leak current into another layer at all or at least less than it otherwise would. At least that's my theory...

However, this does NOT mean, nor did I ever intend to imply, that a machine-wound/machine-guided wind can't sound good. You can create the same effect as the above with a very precise deliberate pattern, as long as it's not in perfect neat rows that allow the maximum leakage of current from one turn of wire into the next. For example, if you had a computerized winder, you could program its traverse speed and RPM's so you got a steep pitch (angle of wire to bobbin plane) that would create a very exact geometric pattern -- sort of like a lattice or trellis -- but which would create the same or similar layer-skipping/capacitance reducing effect as scatterwinding. But because the pattern would be very exact and anything but random, it would by definition NOT be scatterwound.

I don't know, nor do I claim to know, nor am I in any way implying that I know that Seymour or any other manufacturer does or doesn't do this. I can only say I suspect it might be something in their bag of tricks but again, but that is all.
 
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Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Alvin Lee Fan said:
So the PGs are definately not scatter-wound. But, are they definately mismatched coils?

I'm on an A2 kick lately and this news just lit my fire :D

Indeed. As JeffB said of the BurstBuckers. The PGs are based on the sound of the '59 Les Paul, which is indeed vintage. The process used in making the PGs is the same process that was used to make the PAFs that went into the Les Paul in 1959. Maybe a bit more "even," meaning that the amount of turns between each pickup are more consistant. Maybe not. OlinMusic posted a thread about a PG bridge pickup being 8k when it's supposed to be around 8.5k, and said that it lacked balls. So... maybe the coil turns aren't counted. I don't know. Maybe Evan can clear this up.

That being said, I wonder why the PG+ pickups are used in Fender guitars. Doesn't it seem a bit odd that they're using a pickup based completely on a Gibson PAF? :eek13:
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

No, no - I said it could use a touch more balls
like a 3rd ball or at least 1/2 a ball more...lol

I rather like them. I am trying to get used to the sizzle, but it's a unique tone. Very classic and full. I am just overly accustomed to the 59 and the APH1
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

sufferinrewind said:
Indeed. As JeffB said of the BurstBuckers. The PGs are based on the sound of the '59 Les Paul, which is indeed vintage. The process used in making the PGs is the same process that was used to make the PAFs that went into the Les Paul in 1959. Maybe a bit more "even," meaning that the amount of turns between each pickup are more consistant. Maybe not. OlinMusic posted a thread about a PG bridge pickup being 8k when it's supposed to be around 8.5k, and said that it lacked balls. So... maybe the coil turns aren't counted. I don't know. Maybe Evan can clear this up.

That being said, I wonder why the PG+ pickups are used in Fender guitars. Doesn't it seem a bit odd that they're using a pickup based completely on a Gibson PAF? :eek13:

You have to be careful about DC readings. Temperature effects the readings. You can affect the reading by simply holding the pup in you hands for five minutes. Lets not forget that meters are not all calibrated exactly the same either. They have +/- variation too.
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

OlinMusic said:
No, no - I said it could use a touch more balls
like a 3rd ball or at least 1/2 a ball more...lol

I rather like them. I am trying to get used to the sizzle, but it's a unique tone. Very classic and full. I am just overly accustomed to the 59 and the APH1

I guess I misunderstood what you'd said. Sorry about that.
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

sufferinrewind said:
Indeed. As JeffB said of the BurstBuckers. The PGs are based on the sound of the '59 Les Paul, which is indeed vintage. The process used in making the PGs is the same process that was used to make the PAFs that went into the Les Paul in 1959. Maybe a bit more "even," meaning that the amount of turns between each pickup are more consistant. Maybe not. OlinMusic posted a thread about a PG bridge pickup being 8k when it's supposed to be around 8.5k, and said that it lacked balls. So... maybe the coil turns aren't counted. I don't know. Maybe Evan can clear this up.

That being said, I wonder why the PG+ pickups are used in Fender guitars. Doesn't it seem a bit odd that they're using a pickup based completely on a Gibson PAF? :eek13:

Because the PG+ is an alnico 5 pickup: more bass and brighter tone than the standard PG which uses an alnico 2 magnet. Since the PG+ is designed to go with alnico 5 Fender Texas Special Strat pickups, I guess Fender felt that alnico 5 for the bridge humbucker would match up better than the standrad alnico 2 PG.

Lew
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Lewguitar said:
Because the PG+ is an alnico 5 pickup: more bass and brighter tone than the standard PG which uses an alnico 2 magnet. Since the PG+ is designed to go with alnico 5 Fender Texas Special Strat pickups, I guess Fender felt that alnico 5 for the bridge humbucker would match up better than the standrad alnico 2 PG.

Lew

Ya, I understand that, and it's true. An A2 'bucker wouldn't be quite right with the A5 singles. But, the PG+ IS the same as a regular PG, only a different magnet, right?

I just find it a little funny that the PG is based on Gibson pickups and yet Fender is using it in their guitars. That's all.
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

TheArchitect said:
You have to be careful about DC readings. Temperature effects the readings. You can affect the reading by simply holding the pup in you hands for five minutes. Lets not forget that meters are not all calibrated exactly the same either. They have +/- variation too.

+1


Meters do vary, and probably no two will give exactly the same exact reading. There could be a variance + or - a couple of hundred ohms depending the meter too. My own meter usually gives a plate voltage about 2% high when taking readings on amps, so I must take that into account.
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

I seem to recall in the custom shop stuff that "custom" pitch was an option. If few enough turns are used for each layer of the coil, it is going to have a similar effect to scatter winding, isn't it?
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

WGTP said:
I seem to recall in the custom shop stuff that "custom" pitch was an option. If few enough turns are used for each layer of the coil, it is going to have a similar effect to scatter winding, isn't it?

That's more or less what I was saying above about the pitch. Or theorizing anyway...
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

sufferinrewind said:
Ya, I understand that, and it's true. An A2 'bucker wouldn't be quite right with the A5 singles. But, the PG+ IS the same as a regular PG, only a different magnet, right?

I just find it a little funny that the PG is based on Gibson pickups and yet Fender is using it in their guitars. That's all.

Not really that strange. All humbuckers are based on Gibson pickups and folks have been popping 'buckers in their Strats for decades.
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

TheArchitect said:
You have to be careful about DC readings. Temperature effects the readings. You can affect the reading by simply holding the pup in you hands for five minutes. Lets not forget that meters are not all calibrated exactly the same either. They have +/- variation too.

When I make a pickup, I have to factor in the heat from the solder iron if I measure it right after soldering the leads. It will generally read about 0.2 to 0.3k lower the next day after it cools off.
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Zhangliqun said:
Not really that strange. All humbuckers are based on Gibson pickups and folks have been popping 'buckers in their Strats for decades.

Ya, I know they are. But, the Duncan Distortion doesn't sound like a '59 Les Paul. Do you understand what I'm saying now? I just find it funny. I know that the reason Fender started putting humbuckers in their guitars was to bring Gibson players over to their company.
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

So you mean it's odd that they would be putting PAF output/style pu's in a Strat? Still doesn't seem odd to me. In fact, assuming you're not using high-output singles in the neck and middle, it makes more sense from a pickup balance point of view to have an 8 to 8.5k bridge pickup instead of 14k ceramic or other screamer.

I'm sure it all started when Fender found out a lot of guys were having their stock Strats modified to take a bridge humbucker. If I was Fender, it would only make good business sense to me to offer this option to customers to save them the extra money and hassle of modding them on their own.
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

I guess the whole question boils down to whether or not a humbucker is wound with a hand guided machine or a machine guided one. From Evan's post I understand that Antiquitys, '59s, Pearly Gates, Alnico 2 Pros and Seths are wound with Leesona, thus with that hand guided winding method.

Zhang that is sort of what you say too no? Because I remember you writing that you were using some sorta machine while winding.

So am wondering who winds humbuckers with a non-machine powered winder and thus those are wound hand guided scatterwound. ???

B

PS. Guys check out the pics of the Brobuckers while you still can. There you'd see the Leesona and the hand guided winding method.
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Zhangliqun said:
So you mean it's odd that they would be putting PAF output/style pu's in a Strat? Still doesn't seem odd to me. In fact, assuming you're not using high-output singles in the neck and middle, it makes more sense from a pickup balance point of view to have an 8 to 8.5k bridge pickup instead of 14k ceramic or other screamer.

I'm sure it all started when Fender found out a lot of guys were having their stock Strats modified to take a bridge humbucker. If I was Fender, it would only make good business sense to me to offer this option to customers to save them the extra money and hassle of modding them on their own.

I understand, and it makes perfect sense. I just find it funny that they started using because it's a pickup that their competitors made, that's all. But, it does make perfect sense to chime in on what players were doing. If a lot of people were modifying their Strats to fit a humbucker, then I think the right move is to make production models and sell them that way. It makes sense, because if I wanted a Strat with a 'bucker, but didn't want to have it modifed, then I'd probably just use a Gibson when I wanted humbucker tone. This way, no one had to modify their vintage Strat fit a humbucker in it. Their older Strat models will be worth more, and they can have a new Strat that'll have more balls in the bridge if they need it, but still has that Strat quack that all of the true Strat players love.

And the output balance also makes sense.
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

dr.barlo said:
I guess the whole question boils down to whether or not a humbucker is wound with a hand guided machine or a machine guided one. From Evan's post I understand that Antiquitys, '59s, Pearly Gates, Alnico 2 Pros and Seths are wound with Leesona, thus with that hand guided winding method.

Zhang that is sort of what you say too no? Because I remember you writing that you were using some sorta machine while winding.

So am wondering who winds humbuckers with a non-machine powered winder and thus those are wound hand guided scatterwound. ???

B

PS. Guys check out the pics of the Brobuckers while you still can. There you'd see the Leesona and the hand guided winding method.

I was at User Group Day and saw the Leesona, but at the time I wasn't making my own so I didn't think to look to see if the winder was hand-guiding it or not. If it's hand-guided then there is automatically a certain degree of randomness in the wind, even if it's minimal, and so it fits my "definition #1" of scatterwinding.

What I think Evan was saying -- obviously correct me if I'm wrong Evan -- was:

a) Duncan pickups are not DELIBERATELY scatterwound (which would be my "definition #2"). Obviously he would know this better than I. If that is correct, then what little scatter there might be in any Duncan pickup is minimal and certainly unintentional, and even at that only in the pickups where the wire traverse is hand-guided.

b) PAF's were not deliberately scatterwound either, which is certainly true. They were just getting the wire on the bobbin the best way they could -- no-one was thinking about wind patterns back then.

c) Deliberate scatterwinding is something new, also true.

d) I don't think he was saying that hand-guiding wouldn't create a little bit of scatter, however unintentional.

Doc, I do use a machine, a very very simple machine. Some of you will laugh, but it's just a $30 variable speed drill. I built a bobbin mount for it with a screw through it that I clamp in the chuck. I set the drill on its side on a board on my work table (the board to give the bobbin clearance for spinning) and it is a remarkably stable rig that way. I obviously can't do turn counts that way so I gauge it with periodic measurements of DC resistance along the way.

To my knowledge, no-one ever physically wound them strictly by hand. I've tried it and it takes about 8 hours to wind a pickup that way. (Not only not very efficient but it'll wear you out.) I had heard that some makers like Gibson may have used hand-cranked or pedal-cranked machines really early on that presumably could get enough RPM's out of it to be efficient and viable, but I don't know if that's true because the Leesona has the look of a machine that could have been around in the 30's, never mind the 50's.
 
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Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

By the way, just took another peek at the Brobucker picture thread -- if you're referring to the machine in those first few pictures, that's not the Leesona, which is much bigger and looks to be made of cast iron.

Also if I recall, it had some light greenish paint on it or something. (Somebody tell me if I was high...)
 
Re: Are the Pearly Gates scatter wound?

Zhangliqun said:
By the way, just took another peek at the Brobucker picture thread -- if you're referring to the machine in those first few pictures, that's not the Leesona, which is much bigger and looks to be made of cast iron.

Also if I recall, it had some light greenish paint on it or something. (Somebody tell me if I was high...)

:cool:

Thought it was. My mistake!

Best,

B
 
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