Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

This is true in one specific case. For one company this was true, as the Chinese patent was submitted the same year (2007) that the first iPhone came out, and the product isn't technology at all, but leather products like handbags and wallets. China has since then participated with Apple to fight against patent infringement.

Also, while it's unclear how many Chinese citizens have tvs (it's reported that in the 1980s [35 years ago] already 2/3 of the Chinese people had a tv), 3% of Americans don't have tvs today (and only 92% have cell phones), so in the USA with about 320 million people, over 9 million people don't have a tv and more don't have a cell phone of any kind. So you could just as easily say "Of course, it's true that there are still millions of Americans who don't have telephones or televisions..." As for, "actually don't know what an iPhone is", I'd need to see some evidence of that.Their consumer culture (as you mentioned with the iPhone trademark case) is mad for Apple products.Oh, and of course, THEY actually make them, so they maybe have a different kind of knowledge about them.

It was China's own court which said many Chinese do not know of the iPhone. I don't doubt that there are Americans who don't know what an iPhone is. Probably not millions, but some. The population of China is so vast that even 1% now amounts to over ten million people. On reading my post, it could've been misconstrued as implying that China is somewhat backwards. That's far from my intent. In fact, in terms of high tech they are beginning to leave the US behind, much as we hate to acknowledge it here.

My main point was that the Chinese court's ruling, while being factually correct, in my opinion completely ignored the fact that the Chinese product was a copy. (I had no idea they were selling handbags; somehow that information was omitted from the mass-media reports that the ruling precipitated here in the US.) I know the Apple products are manufactured in China. But IMO this shouldn't give any Chinese company the right to use the name for their own purposes.

That may be just one court case, but in the larger picture it's far from an isolated incident. I think it's very unlikely that the vast number of counterfeit industries thriving in China somehow happened without the government's knowledge and approval.

 

[The Convert]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

My main point was that the Chinese court's ruling, while being factually correct, in my opinion...

Yes. A single court ruled a certain way in one case relating to a dispute founded in facts that are 14 years old. Every inference that followed was, as you pointed out, your opinion.

Per the BBC on the story: "Xintong Tiandi trademarked "IPHONE" for leather products in China in 2010. Apple filed a trademark bid for the name for electronic goods in 2002, but it was not approved until 2013." So Apple didn't have the trademark when Xintong Tiandi was already doing business in China, and Apple didn't even secure the trademark within China until 3 years ago. Also, the article points out that the exact branding "IPHONE" (always all caps) and "iPhone" are arguably recognizably different. Of course they are trying to benefit on the popularity of the name, but even the products each company makes don't overlap. They aren't making bogus iPhones, like others have done and do. That, I think, is why this is a special case. Even in their trademark filings, they list different categories: "leather products" and "electronic goods".

Regardless of what I think happened in this case, personally, I have no sympathy for Apple. They use slave labor to create the greatest profits in history while the workers that make their products so routinely attempt suicide, they actually put nets up around one factory dormitory. BTW: FACTORY DORMITORY! Horrifying! How little of my $600 iPhone went to the people who ACTUALLY MADE IT is disgusting, and the fact that we vilify the Chinese on top of it all, is madness, when it is our adherence to laissez-faire capitalism that exploits the cheapest labor markets in the world. Good for them for creating cheap copies of these things, selling them mostly inside China, and contributing to a 26% drop in Apple's sales revenues in China. There's a nice middle finger for ya, Apple.

Oh, and as a side note, it should be obvious, but let's just say it. These many Chinese companies who, starting with investment capital, do business with giant Western corporations like Apple, bid for resources on the international markets, pay proportional wages based on labor market factors, and sell their end-products to individuals and companies for a profit. This is the exact basic recipe for capitalism. While you can argue that Chinese government and some social factors are the offshoot of Stalinist Bolshevism, there is NOTHING that is communist, Marxist, or even especially socialist by Western standards when it comes to these companies and how they do business. China is arguably one of the top three biggest capitalist economies in the world.

"Discuss. Talk amongst yourselves. I gave you a topic." - Coffee Talk Lady (SNL, Meyers)

;-)

 

[HiFiRebel]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

That's like saying "murder is legal in the US, look at Chicago." Just because it happens doesn't mean the government is turning a blind eye or embracing it.

My read is that it's legal in China to sell within China. China does recognize foreign trademarks. International policing of low volume, low value items is hard to do, and not worth doing for most people. Also, Alibaba Express is a reseller. Even in the US they might just get fined. Try tracking down who's making all the counterfeits. You can't shut them down when they shut themselves down every few months, and the same factory is used over and over under different names, etc.

China does not follow US trademarks. I know Alibaba is a resller site. It is loaded with counterfeits and fakes. I know this because of my job. I deal with this stuff all of the time.

 

[backporchpicker]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

That says to me that you best buy from an authorized dealer because anything you buy used could be a China fake. Is that true?

 

[HiFiRebel]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

Anything can be fake from anywhere. It's a do your homework kind of thing.

 

[The Convert]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

China does not follow US trademarks. I know Alibaba is a resller site. It is loaded with counterfeits and fakes. I know this because of my job. I deal with this stuff all of the time.

Then it should be easy for you to provide evidence that the Chinese government has a practice or policy to this effect? I'd love to see that. I always like more information.

EDIT: Regardless of how successful they are, this seems to suggest that the Chinese government is very much interested in meeting international standards in regards to trademark law:

http://www.wipo.int/wipo_magazine/en/2014/05/article_0009.html

 

[HiFiRebel]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

I don't read any form of Chinese, so it would tricky to read any policies. I experience a great deal of fakes on large websites such as Amazon. Being a brand owner does not protect you against others that are counterfeiting your product and sometimes even selling it on the same ASIN as your own. There are a great many sellers affected by this. And judging by the fact that the Chinese government subsidizes freight costs for a number of said sellers, it stands to reason that they do approve of it. But that may just be the understanding of an online seller that doesn't read any form of Chinese.

 

[backporchpicker]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

They have China fakes on Amazon!? That doesn't include guitars and amps does it? I sure would like to see an example of China fake guitar or amp on Amazon.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

Yes. A single court ruled a certain way in one case relating to a dispute founded in facts that are 14 years old. Every inference that followed was, as you pointed out, your opinion.

Per the BBC on the story: "Xintong Tiandi trademarked "IPHONE" for leather products in China in 2010. Apple filed a trademark bid for the name for electronic goods in 2002, but it was not approved until 2013." So Apple

...BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...

"Discuss. Talk amongst yourselves. I gave you a topic." - Coffee Talk Lady (SNL, Meyers)

;-)

I think the topic is 'are these Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?'

How about just keeping on that topic, or take it into the Sound Room for off-topic stuff and soapbox rants at other members?

 

[Southbound Suarez]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

International copyright laws and patents are hard to enforce. Years ago Kahler had copyrights and patents but was still taking a hit from the eurasian market that was robbing them blind.

 

[The Convert]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

How about just keeping on that topic

Well, the topic is "are they?", which became "clearly not, how is that possible?".

By your narrow interpretation of "keeping on that topic" the thread is therefore done. Question answered. OR we can talk about something absolutely related, relevant, and interesting.

Some people might look at the discourse between my and HiFiRebel, for example, as being argumentative. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, the most fundamental dialectic is thesis:antithesis:synthesis. That is, propose one possible explanation, explore in comparison to other possible explanations, and you just might come to an answer. It's only about 2200 years old, though, so I guess I could be talking out of my butt.

Your choice. I always vote for discussion and interesting.

EDIT: But if you don't like long posts (because apparently making a point is a "rant"), I can add TLDR summaries: So for the quote you pulled (and abbreviated), I might say, "TLDR: 1) your example is a special case. 2) Apple deserves to lose out since their being robbed by those they exploit, and 3) only an idiot thinks China is a communist economy."

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

Well, the topic is "are they?", which became "clearly not, how is that possible?".

By your narrow interpretation of "keeping on that topic" the thread is therefore done. Question answered. OR we can talk about something absolutely related, relevant, and interesting.

Some people might look at the discourse between my and HiFiRebel, for example, as being argumentative. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, the most fundamental dialectic is thesis:antithesis:synthesis. That is, propose one possible explanation, explore in comparison to other possible explanations, and you just might come to an answer. It's only about 2200 years old, though, so I guess I could be talking out of my butt.

Your choice. I always vote for discussion and interesting.

I opened the thread to see if there was more information about said guitar and said pickups, and instead found 4++ paragraphs of pedantic slathering from one guy about an Apple lawsuit. Doesn't sound on topic to me.

 

[The Convert]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

I opened the thread to see if there was more information about said guitar and said pickups, and instead found 4++ paragraphs of pedantic slathering from one guy about an Apple lawsuit. Doesn't sound on topic to me.

Ok, well, first I'm troubled that you think the question isn't answered yet. All kinds of evidence was provided on the first page.

Second, don't be afraid of reading. Really? Four whole paragraphs! Crap, how do you survive in the face of that?

Third, if you aren't interested in the details and nuances of the question you asked, I don't see why you can't just ignore it. Or maybe you don't understand how the discussion on patent law relates to how those counterfeit pickups could come into being?

Dude, I don't know. I'm engaging as I do, and you will as you do. You really can't handle that? What, is it distracting, or do you imagine that we'd otherwise be giving all kinds of answers to your questions (that have already been provided)?

It's called organic growth, and it's what happens when the OP asks a question like that in a discussion forum. He asked a yes/no question. The answer is no. Anything else is just the community exploring the situation.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

Ok, well, first I'm troubled that you think the question isn't answered yet. All kinds of evidence was provided on the first page.

Second, don't be afraid of reading. Really? Four whole paragraphs! Crap, how do you survive in the face of that?

Third, if you aren't interested in the details and nuances of the question you asked, I don't see why you can't just ignore it. Or maybe you don't understand how the discussion on patent law relates to how those counterfeit pickups could come into being?

Dude, I don't know. I'm engaging as I do, and you will as you do. You really can't handle that? What, is it distracting, or do you imagine that we'd otherwise be giving all kinds of answers to your questions (that have already been provided)?

It's called organic growth, and it's what happens when the OP asks a question like that in a discussion forum. He asked a yes/no question. The answer is no. Anything else is just the community exploring the situation.

First off, I never said the original question wasn't answered. I said I checked in to see if there was additional information about the guitar or the pickups. You made a false leap there.

Second, I have no problem with paragraphs if it's interesting and on topic for what I wanted to read. I was interested in the original topic. I'm not interested in your take on the Apple lawsuit.

Third, you have no idea what I do know or don't know about patent law, because you don't know who I am or what I have done for a living.

Lastly, you seem to think you are more interesting than you really are.

 

[HiFiRebel]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

They have China fakes on Amazon!? That doesn't include guitars and amps does it? I sure would like to see an example of China fake guitar or amp on Amazon.

I don't work in the music business so I don't know. Electronics are the biggie. Sony, Apple, and Nikon are popular targets.

 

[backporchpicker]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

Has anyone tried a China made guitar? Are they bad or can you find good ones?

 

[JOLLY]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

Someone in this thread totally reeks of a certain argumentative ex member that just always had to have the last word. I'm not naming any names, but Yngwie jams on guitar, and I think we all know the legend of Shoguns and Brutes. I could be wrong, but I'm just sayin'.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

Has anyone tried a China made guitar? Are they bad or can you find good ones?

Epiphone is among many well known brands which are made in, or have some models made in China. But if you are talking about Chinese made fakes ... do a youtube search for Chibson. But take everything with a grain of salt.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

What I'm wondering is are these knockoffs coming from OEMs that are doing a side thing in Asia? Or are they ex-OEM employees that got their hands on some parts and are going rogue? Or are they just complete utter fakes from who-knows?

If not the latter, there might be some value in getting an OEM-equivalent guitar at an even lower price - for pickup swaps/testing and playing around with.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Are these really Seymour Duncan pickups in a $300 guitar?

What I'm wondering is are these knockoffs coming from OEMs that are doing a side thing in Asia? Or are they ex-OEM employees that got their hands on some parts and are going rogue? Or are they just complete utter fakes from who-knows?

If not the latter, there might be some value in getting an OEM-equivalent guitar at an even lower price - for pickup swaps/testing and playing around with.

Unfortunately, it's the latter in all cases I've seen. Poor fakes and awful quality. IMO for a decent test bed it'd be far better to go with an Epiphone, or one of the Korean or Indonesian guitars.