AXE FX lead tones all the same?

[everdrone]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

Revalver is MF stupid deal of day for $30.

bingo! thanks brutha, purchased! revalver has been raved about, its old version but perfect for me

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

bingo! thanks brutha, purchased! revalver has been raved about, its old version but perfect for me

No, thank you. I wasn't going to order it until you made me realize they have a new version coming out, I thought they abandoned the software. I just ordered one, maybe they will have upgrade pricing, if not I'm sure I can find something useful in there.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

Bah... have owned or played nearly everything in modelers, profilers, etc. Give me a tube amp (or two) ANY day of the week over any of them. I still keep the Tonelab around, but the Kemper is gone, the 11R is gone, the Fractal never was (tried one, don't own one), etc.

I will say this... if you're a tweaker then I can see all of the excitement over these things. I've always been a player. When I get a new amp or pedal, I dial-up the tones that I'm looking for right away and I play and really experience the gear and immerse myself in it. I can't do that if I'm constantly fiddling with the parameters. But I'm a pretty basic guy when it comes to tones and FX. Give me a good Fender or Marshall tone, flavor to taste, give me some basic, transparent chorus, delay, reverb, wah, etc FX... and I've got all I need. I'm not trying to reproduce tones from The Edge or Dave Gilmour to the tee. Though with Gilmour, it's MUCH more about feel and tone than it is about racks of FX (his own touring rig notwithstanding).

Anyways... the clips of Pete Thorn that GoneShootin posted aren't a fair fight anyways. That guy could (and does) make ALL gear sound amazing. I've purchased more than a few items based solely on his clips (including my Plexitone, which I still own and love).

One more thing pertaining to my personal tone journey... I've been through a lot of boutique channel switchers and multi-fx pedals these past few years as well. My Bogner XTC and TC G-System were probably my favorites of these. But I've come to the conclusion that the more wires, circuits and diodes that are in my tone chain, the mushier it comes out on the other end. I want pristine clarity, dynamics, and note-definition. By putting a million miles of circuitry in-between my guitar and my speakers... I'm making that pristine tone harder to maintain. I recently sold my H&K Grandmeister here on this forum (I LOVE that amp... SO capable and versatile), because I wanted to simplify things in a major way. So I'm rocking Les Pauls and Strats into some FX, into a pair of Ceriatone plexi amps right now. If you want endless FX tweakability and compressed tones... then push buttons and watch the pretty lights blinking. If you want pure tone, plug-in, hit the standby toggle, turn-up the volume and just be carried away in the purity of awesome tone. :9:

 

[uOpt]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

The real test is to isolate single things in the modeler and compare that.

That means comparing a -say- JMP going into a red box or a power soak, with unfiltered output, and compare that to just the JMP model with no cab and no effects. To make it a more useful comparison you can then filter both with the same LPF to have rudimentary speaker emulation. Then you will see how well the tubes get emulated, and the output transformer, and the rectifier. Assuming that all of those always act in the same manner is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

 

[everdrone]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

not a tweaker, just a player with horrible gas for every musical gear under the sun

if I can buy cheap stuff to stop the gas for expensive stuff, that is the best route for me! I think that power soak is gonna be the next step for me as I climb the rainbow

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

$30 is the price of a vdeo game. I look at it like that. Just a fun game.

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

Bah... have owned or played nearly everything in modelers, profilers, etc. Give me a tube amp (or two) ANY day of the week over any of them. I still keep the Tonelab around, but the Kemper is gone, the 11R is gone, the Fractal never was (tried one, don't own one), etc.

I will say this... if you're a tweaker then I can see all of the excitement over these things. I've always been a player. When I get a new amp or pedal, I dial-up the tones that I'm looking for right away and I play and really experience the gear and immerse myself in it. I can't do that if I'm constantly fiddling with the parameters. But I'm a pretty basic guy when it comes to tones and FX. Give me a good Fender or Marshall tone, flavor to taste, give me some basic, transparent chorus, delay, reverb, wah, etc FX... and I've got all I need. I'm not trying to reproduce tones from The Edge or Dave Gilmour to the tee. Though with Gilmour, it's MUCH more about feel and tone than it is about racks of FX (his own touring rig notwithstanding).

Anyways... the clips of Pete Thorn that GoneShootin posted aren't a fair fight anyways. That guy could (and does) make ALL gear sound amazing. I've purchased more than a few items based solely on his clips (including my Plexitone, which I still own and love).

One more thing pertaining to my personal tone journey... I've been through a lot of boutique channel switchers and multi-fx pedals these past few years as well. My Bogner XTC and TC G-System were probably my favorites of these. But I've come to the conclusion that the more wires, circuits and diodes that are in my tone chain, the mushier it comes out on the other end. I want pristine clarity, dynamics, and note-definition. By putting a million miles of circuitry in-between my guitar and my speakers... I'm making that pristine tone harder to maintain.

If thats what you really want, then you need a Low-Z signal from your guitar. Install a PA-2 in every one of your guitars, it will eliminate any loading from cables or bad input buffers.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

If thats what you really want, then you need a Low-Z signal from your guitar. Install a PA-2 in every one of your guitars, it will eliminate any loading from cables or bad input buffers.

I should do that! Will look into it.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

not a tweaker, just a player with horrible gas for every musical gear under the sun

if I can buy cheap stuff to stop the gas for expensive stuff, that is the best route for me! I think that power soak is gonna be the next step for me as I climb the rainbow

The problem with attenuators (not matter how expensive they are) is that people get focused on the power tube thing and think that if they can drive the power tubes, but hold the volume down... they've got it all. But for me, a HUGE component of tone is those speaker cones moving a lot of air. Only volume will do that. I've got several attenuators that just sit around. They're cool and work well (for what they do), but in the end there's still something missing.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

The real test is to isolate single things in the modeler and compare that.

That means comparing a -say- JMP going into a red box or a power soak, with unfiltered output, and compare that to just the JMP model with no cab and no effects. To make it a more useful comparison you can then filter both with the same LPF to have rudimentary speaker emulation. Then you will see how well the tubes get emulated, and the output transformer, and the rectifier. Assuming that all of those always act in the same manner is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

They don't, and they never will. They're getting close, but still no cigar. Because tubes are just too varied, random, etc to fully emulate. For instance, as a tube is worked and warms-up, it'll respond differently than when it's cold and just turned-on. They're almost human in that regard! Also, as a tube ages, it wears-in and starts to react differently. Same goes for good speakers. CPUs will never do that. They'll either work, or not work (or at least work badly). They'll never work BETTER as they warm-up and experience wear.

Anyways... these forums have been awash with tube vs. digital for years and will continue to be so. Digital is cool. I've got no beef with it. It's not bad. It's even "good" much of the time. But when I wanna feel goose bumps day-after-day when I plug-in and turn-up... I'll choose warm, glowing, "living" tubes over sterile microprocessors performing millions of instructions per second. Not a whole lot of players out there feeling nostalgia for their old digital gear. I ran a rack system through out the '90s and wouldn't take it back if you gave it to me! Well... maybe the ADA MP-1 (but it had a TUBE in it). On the other hand, we all know the longevity of people's love for their tube gear.

 

[everdrone]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

The problem with attenuators (not matter how expensive they are) is that people get focused on the power tube thing and think that if they can drive the power tubes, but hold the volume down... they've got it all. But for me, a HUGE component of tone is those speaker cones moving a lot of air. Only volume will do that. I've got several attenuators that just sit around. They're cool and work well (for what they do), but in the end there's still something missing.

true dat, a lot of tone is from the speaker distortion

I would just be getting a power soak as a load and then use my recabinet impulse IRs as the cabinet simulation never done it before but looking forward to it, prolly will do in the next year tho

 

[uOpt]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

It's not just speaker distortion.

There is a very complex interaction going on between the output transformer and the speaker, a relationship highly dependent on current load (which influences magnetic saturation in the transformer), the speaker's coil and the usual tube amp specialty - that the high output impedance fails to "brake" the speaker when there is sudden silence. A solid state amp shortcuts the speaker and brakes it. That's nice to know but the specific amount of brake pedal applied is probably far from constant for a tube amp.

I am also pretty convinced that cranked tube amps have a significant amount of color and flavor added by mechanical effects.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

true dat, a lot of tone is from the speaker distortion

I would just be getting a power soak as a load and then use my recabinet impulse IRs as the cabinet simulation never done it before but looking forward to it, prolly will do in the next year tho

Gotchya. I've never tried that either.

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

They don't, and they never will. They're getting close, but still no cigar. Because tubes are just too varied, random, etc to fully emulate. For instance, as a tube is worked and warms-up, it'll respond differently than when it's cold and just turned-on. They're almost human in that regard! Also, as a tube ages, it wears-in and starts to react differently. Same goes for good speakers. CPUs will never do that. They'll either work, or not work (or at least work badly). They'll never work BETTER as they warm-up and experience wear.

Anyways... these forums have been awash with tube vs. digital for years and will continue to be so. Digital is cool. I've got no beef with it. It's not bad. It's even "good" much of the time. But when I wanna feel goose bumps day-after-day when I plug-in and turn-up... I'll choose warm, glowing, "living" tubes over sterile microprocessors performing millions of instructions per second. Not a whole lot of players out there feeling nostalgia for their old digital gear. I ran a rack system through out the '90s and wouldn't take it back if you gave it to me! Well... maybe the ADA MP-1 (but it had a TUBE in it). On the other hand, we all know the longevity of people's love for their tube gear.

I disagree. I can use the Mustang preamps alone into a tube amp/power amp and you cant tell its a digital preamp.

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

true dat, a lot of tone is from the speaker distortion

I would just be getting a power soak as a load and then use my recabinet impulse IRs as the cabinet simulation never done it before but looking forward to it, prolly will do in the next year tho

Thats what I was thinking. Just need a redbox to change it to line level, send it to the computer and use cabinet simulations.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

I disagree. I can use the Mustang preamps alone into a tube amp/power amp and you cant tell its a digital preamp.

Mmmm... I dunno if I'd agree with that. But the fact that you're still using the power amp tubes and the speakers means that you're using two of the most important parts of the chain IMO.

And I will say that having had an 11R and a Kemper, and played with a Fractal (all of which I consider to be superior products to the Fender Mustang series)... I can still tell the difference (easily). Maybe not in recorded sound (because then you're ultimately digitizing everything one way or the other). But certainly in feel and response as I'm standing in front of it. When I first got my 11R I had many tube snob buddies come over and all were amazed at the tube feel and response that it had. But all of them (and I as well) agreed that it wasn't 100% the same as the real thing. It just wasn't.

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

Mmmm... I dunno if I'd agree with that. But the fact that you're still using the power amp tubes and the speakers means that you're using two of the most important parts of the chain IMO.

And I will say that having had an 11R and a Kemper, and played with a Fractal (all of which I consider to be superior products to the Fender Mustang series)... I can still tell the difference (easily). Maybe not in recorded sound (because then you're ultimately digitizing everything one way or the other). But certainly in feel and response as I'm standing in front of it. When I first got my 11R I had many tube snob buddies come over and all were amazed at the tube feel and response that it had. But all of them (and I as well) agreed that it wasn't 100% the same as the real thing. It just wasn't.

Don't discount the mustang floor, getting the models to sound right takes some know-how, I would put it up there certainly with the line6, boss ,digitech, vox, etc.

I had been using a JSX as my lead amp and dialed in a patch in the Mustang, that when run through the power sectioin, speaker, sm57, was sending a signal to my monitors that you couldnt tell was not from a tube amp. Note I did not say it was identical, just that you couldnt tell it was not tube. I mean, that makes sense because you can run a good distortion pedal to the amp for similar effect. The preamp modelling has arrived, imo.

The JSX in room, the preamp's EQ was better matched to the power section. Its my opinion that the last 5% comes from synchronicity between the preamp, power amp, and speakers, which is why all in one heads or combos almost always sound better than rack power + rack pre. The Mustang Pres have to work through a wide range of playback scenarios.

But honestly, if I was gigging, I would just use the Mustang floor into a tube power section and control everything from the floor, no need to worry about midi for switching the amp channels, and honestly the Fender Mustangs, cleans and mid gain blow away anything I have heard from a high-gain head.

 

[dominus]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

true dat, a lot of tone is from the speaker distortion

I would just be getting a power soak as a load and then use my recabinet impulse IRs as the cabinet simulation never done it before but looking forward to it, prolly will do in the next year tho

Revalver's RIR (impulse loader) does simulate speaker distortion. Even though I own Recabinet I still find myself using Revalver most of the time to host IRs.

 

[dominus]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

Thats what I was thinking. Just need a redbox to change it to line level, send it to the computer and use cabinet simulations.

No need to do that even. Just use the power soak as a load and run out from the Effects send on the amp. Load up a power amp if necessary. Ignite Amps' TPA-1 is free:

and Revalver has a few power amps available as well.

 

[Top-L]

Re: AXE FX lead tones all the same?

No need to do that even. Just use the power soak as a load and run out from the Effects send on the amp. Load up a power amp if necessary. Ignite Amps' TPA-1 is free:

and Revalver has a few power amps available as well.

Cool, that means I can just run my amp into its iso cab and run the send to my audio interface for whatever cab modelling I want.. Need to try that. .

But the redbox has the tube saturation built into the line out.