I've seen some folks use BBE/exciter type processing in their guitar rack, I guess between preamp and poweramp. Always looking for cool rack stuff - I'm running an ADA and Hiwatt PRE-1 into a Mesa 50/50, Mesa 4X12. I get all the tone I need - not sure what the exciter could add....before I buy a used one and try it out, tell me what you think....:smokin:
BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
- Thread starter SF audio
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Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
Do you mean a Sonic Maximizer?
I had a long thread about this recently, and we all came to a simple conclusion - if you want a less compressed, less processed, more open DON'T USE ONE...lol
I use one, because we decided in the thread that they can be decent if you used sparingly. That is how I use mine. It sits in my rack and I use it when I feel like it. They are really easy to take out of the chain. The Process knob will give you a thumpier bass, and on one of my amps I really need this. The Contour makes your treble more defined, and when slowly added to taste, it can really help your live sound a lot. I have NOT used it recording.
Do you mean a Sonic Maximizer?
I had a long thread about this recently, and we all came to a simple conclusion - if you want a less compressed, less processed, more open DON'T USE ONE...lol
I use one, because we decided in the thread that they can be decent if you used sparingly. That is how I use mine. It sits in my rack and I use it when I feel like it. They are really easy to take out of the chain. The Process knob will give you a thumpier bass, and on one of my amps I really need this. The Contour makes your treble more defined, and when slowly added to taste, it can really help your live sound a lot. I have NOT used it recording.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
I'd try a BBE before an "exciter" personally. I was never into exciters and enhancers. They're all trying to add subharmonics that aren't there, and such, or they're just hyper EQ's. The BBE's work with time alignment and phase, and it's really more of a signal conditioning for the speaker the music comes out of. Kind of like when a PA system has been properly calibrated and time aligned, the whole room sounds better. Sure you can just crank the BBE controls and you have a bass/treble boosted, excited signal, but as a guitarist you won't really use it that way.
For recording, remember that with the phase relationships it will change how the sound of something fits in the mix. So BBE might be one of the tricks I use on something if I think it needs to stand out without being any louder, and I don't want to compress it. But sometimes a simple phase reversal accomplishes that.
One of my favorite guitar "enhancers" though has to be the Rocktron Pro Q. I don't really use the Phase portion, although I think they tried to make that like a variable crossover BBE style process. But the fixed bass and presence frequency curves are fantastic for guitar. And it's nice having hush in there at that point in the signal path. If you set it low enough you can't hear it. If you can find one of those cheap used it's a good buy, too. It has a bypass switch, but when all the numbers within a preset are at "zero" they did a good job on that one of making it transparent.
I'd try a BBE before an "exciter" personally. I was never into exciters and enhancers. They're all trying to add subharmonics that aren't there, and such, or they're just hyper EQ's. The BBE's work with time alignment and phase, and it's really more of a signal conditioning for the speaker the music comes out of. Kind of like when a PA system has been properly calibrated and time aligned, the whole room sounds better. Sure you can just crank the BBE controls and you have a bass/treble boosted, excited signal, but as a guitarist you won't really use it that way.
For recording, remember that with the phase relationships it will change how the sound of something fits in the mix. So BBE might be one of the tricks I use on something if I think it needs to stand out without being any louder, and I don't want to compress it. But sometimes a simple phase reversal accomplishes that.
One of my favorite guitar "enhancers" though has to be the Rocktron Pro Q. I don't really use the Phase portion, although I think they tried to make that like a variable crossover BBE style process. But the fixed bass and presence frequency curves are fantastic for guitar. And it's nice having hush in there at that point in the signal path. If you set it low enough you can't hear it. If you can find one of those cheap used it's a good buy, too. It has a bypass switch, but when all the numbers within a preset are at "zero" they did a good job on that one of making it transparent.
element062
New member
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
I use the sonic maximizer pedal in the loop of my valveking. It sounds nice and I keep it on all the time. It does sound over processed if you turn the knobs too far past half way. I set mine with contour at high noon and the process at about 1 or 2. Anymore than that and eeek!! But, it helps make the bass tighter and treble sparklier. The aural exciter on the otherhand is a piece of garbage. My friend uses it in his loop, its also a pedal version but it does barely anything to enhance tone.
I use the sonic maximizer pedal in the loop of my valveking. It sounds nice and I keep it on all the time. It does sound over processed if you turn the knobs too far past half way. I set mine with contour at high noon and the process at about 1 or 2. Anymore than that and eeek!! But, it helps make the bass tighter and treble sparklier. The aural exciter on the otherhand is a piece of garbage. My friend uses it in his loop, its also a pedal version but it does barely anything to enhance tone.
ParameterMan
New member
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
Repeat after me.... the Sonic Maximizer does NOT compress! It shifts the phase of the midrange and bass by delaying them slightly, thus helping sharpen the attack of notes especially when using PA speakers with deep throat horns. The process control is an enhancer, ie. it's a treble boost with an overload circuit.
I've found that BBE != organic. For screaming, effect laden 80's sounds, it can really open things up. It can also change the nature of death metal chuggas allowing you to use more distortion. And bass.
Repeat after me.... the Sonic Maximizer does NOT compress! It shifts the phase of the midrange and bass by delaying them slightly, thus helping sharpen the attack of notes especially when using PA speakers with deep throat horns. The process control is an enhancer, ie. it's a treble boost with an overload circuit.
I've found that BBE != organic. For screaming, effect laden 80's sounds, it can really open things up. It can also change the nature of death metal chuggas allowing you to use more distortion. And bass.
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
When you think 80's style leads, you think over processed screaming guitar. You also think guitar solos in the middle of concerts - remember those? When I saw Van Halen, Y&T,etc., do their guitar hero stuff with the pot smoke filling the arena, it was almost a surreal experience.
Besides the obvious delay during these solos, I wonder what other processing was used to get that "bigger than the arena" sound....I guess sheer volume helps..!
When you think 80's style leads, you think over processed screaming guitar. You also think guitar solos in the middle of concerts - remember those? When I saw Van Halen, Y&T,etc., do their guitar hero stuff with the pot smoke filling the arena, it was almost a surreal experience.
Besides the obvious delay during these solos, I wonder what other processing was used to get that "bigger than the arena" sound....I guess sheer volume helps..!
J
Jeff Dunne
Guest
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
Dude... BBE definitely does NOT equal organic. Those things do nothing an EQ can't, while making the tone more processed and stale.
I personally feel that if you have to use one, you're using the wrong amp, and that they do nothing but ruin tones.
They can sound good in a mastering chain, though.
Dude... BBE definitely does NOT equal organic. Those things do nothing an EQ can't, while making the tone more processed and stale.
I personally feel that if you have to use one, you're using the wrong amp, and that they do nothing but ruin tones.
They can sound good in a mastering chain, though.
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JB_From_Hell
Jomo's Nimions
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
The "For effects laden 80's sounds" sentence should've been a good context clue.Ken said:
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Jeff Dunne
Guest
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
//Intentionally
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Ken said:
//Intentionally
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frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
Also, how can they "sound good in a mastering chain" as you say, but only ruin and sterilize a guitar rig? Forgive me if any of this sounds confrontational, I don't like to debate subjective matter, and you have a right to your thoughts.:bigok: It's just that we've been hearing that nobody NEEDS a BBE ever since they came out the 80's. There have always been the scoffers who say a graphic can replace it. Yet it's used in countless recordings, live rack guitar rigs, FOH rigs, etc. In a side-by-side comparison you could never get a graphic to fool me. Plenty of guys use them with Boogie MK and Rectos, including myself. Is that the "wrong amp?"
I'm sorry, so an EQ can manipulate the phase relationship between the low frequencies and the high frequencies? Which magical EQ is that? When did active boost/cut filters become phase manipulation and frequency dependent microsecond delay units? If you don't like the way a BBE sounds in the loop of your amp, don't use one. But don't tell me that a brown cow makes chocolate milk. :eek13: :laugh2: Not everyone likes BBE's. That's fine with me, I don't like Big Muff style fuzz boxes, but lots of people do.Jeff Dunne said:
Also, how can they "sound good in a mastering chain" as you say, but only ruin and sterilize a guitar rig? Forgive me if any of this sounds confrontational, I don't like to debate subjective matter, and you have a right to your thoughts.:bigok: It's just that we've been hearing that nobody NEEDS a BBE ever since they came out the 80's. There have always been the scoffers who say a graphic can replace it. Yet it's used in countless recordings, live rack guitar rigs, FOH rigs, etc. In a side-by-side comparison you could never get a graphic to fool me. Plenty of guys use them with Boogie MK and Rectos, including myself. Is that the "wrong amp?"
J
Jeff Dunne
Guest
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
They may change the phase relationship, but the end effect is nothing an EQ couldn't produce, without the processed sound.
By wrong amp I mean that if you need that to get your tone, it's just a band-aid, and you should be using a better amp, or one more suited to your tone. It's the same reason I don't think an EQ should be introduced into a guitar rig - it's just a bandaid.
As far as it sounding good on a mastering chain and not a guitar tone... it's used to polish the overall sound, just like a limiter would be used on the overall sound, a multiband compressor on the overall sound, etc. The final mix should be processed sounding, in a good way - not the guitar tone.
They may change the phase relationship, but the end effect is nothing an EQ couldn't produce, without the processed sound.
By wrong amp I mean that if you need that to get your tone, it's just a band-aid, and you should be using a better amp, or one more suited to your tone. It's the same reason I don't think an EQ should be introduced into a guitar rig - it's just a bandaid.
As far as it sounding good on a mastering chain and not a guitar tone... it's used to polish the overall sound, just like a limiter would be used on the overall sound, a multiband compressor on the overall sound, etc. The final mix should be processed sounding, in a good way - not the guitar tone.
JB_From_Hell
Jomo's Nimions
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
By that rational, wouldn't the same be true of an OD pedal?Jeff Dunne said:
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Jeff Dunne
Guest
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
I've actually thought about that - The OD pedal doesn't process the sound or do anything but take a tone and make it tighter and more defined, which every amp can benefit from. I've never found an amp that doesn't sound better with an OD infront, but there are amps that already sound like they have a BBE engaged, like the ENGL Powerball and Fireball, the amps I think people who like BBE's should be playing in the first place.
I've actually thought about that - The OD pedal doesn't process the sound or do anything but take a tone and make it tighter and more defined, which every amp can benefit from. I've never found an amp that doesn't sound better with an OD infront, but there are amps that already sound like they have a BBE engaged, like the ENGL Powerball and Fireball, the amps I think people who like BBE's should be playing in the first place.
JB_From_Hell
Jomo's Nimions
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
I guess I just find it confusing that while frank is happy with the BBE into a Mesa tone, he's using the wrong amp.
The OD pedal thing is a bit hypocritical, as someone could easily say that if your amp isn't tight enough, you're using the wrong one.
I guess I just find it confusing that while frank is happy with the BBE into a Mesa tone, he's using the wrong amp.
The OD pedal thing is a bit hypocritical, as someone could easily say that if your amp isn't tight enough, you're using the wrong one.
ParameterMan
New member
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
I hate arguments, but.... the maximizer != EQ.
I'm with frankfalbo on this. Sit down with an EQ and BBE in the same rack and switch 'em in and out and you'll find they cannot do the same things. EQ alters frequency content, BBE alters the attack. Now, I'll agree that the result of the phase cancellations is that of a complex notch filter, but I'd have to argue that a) there isn't a fancy enough EQ to do it, and b) the altered attack makes it perceptually impossible to replicate.
Switching in the BBE makes it sound like the guitar just changed positions on the soundstage. Sometimes it make the guitar sound like it's a couple feet in front of the speakers. Sometimes, it sounds like the guitar just exited stage left and joined Brittney's backstage party.
In some rigs, it can get back the chunk in palm mutes, and in others the mutes just turn to mush. Most of the time, I prefer an EQ to sweeten the mix without altering attack. I kinda like that bloom from the speaker cabinet.
I hate arguments, but.... the maximizer != EQ.
I'm with frankfalbo on this. Sit down with an EQ and BBE in the same rack and switch 'em in and out and you'll find they cannot do the same things. EQ alters frequency content, BBE alters the attack. Now, I'll agree that the result of the phase cancellations is that of a complex notch filter, but I'd have to argue that a) there isn't a fancy enough EQ to do it, and b) the altered attack makes it perceptually impossible to replicate.Switching in the BBE makes it sound like the guitar just changed positions on the soundstage. Sometimes it make the guitar sound like it's a couple feet in front of the speakers. Sometimes, it sounds like the guitar just exited stage left and joined Brittney's backstage party.
In some rigs, it can get back the chunk in palm mutes, and in others the mutes just turn to mush. Most of the time, I prefer an EQ to sweeten the mix without altering attack. I kinda like that bloom from the speaker cabinet.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
All good points. And just to reiterate, it's just a friendly debate. The OD pedal is a decent parallel philosophically. (not scientifically because it doesn't alter phase, etc.) But yeah, it's like you spend $1700 on an amp just to put a $90 stompbox in front of it. I ALWAYS run a driver pedal in front, no matter what amp, so I'm agreeing that it's beneficial. It's just kind of funny that by the same logic I'm not using the "wrong amp" if I have to put a $90 solid state OD in front of it to get my tone, but I am if I put a BBE in the loop.
If a guy is using a Marshall, then taking a BBE and cranking the knobs in an attempt to emulate a beefier, more Boogie Recto type of sound, he's got the wrong amp. After 12:00 the knobs on a BBE are really acting as a shelving lo/hi boost EQ in conjunction with the BBE process, and I can see where you'd come up with that philosophy. But in my case, I certainly don't leave the BBE on all the time. It's on about half the time, and I have different programs where it comes in or out of the loop, via MIDI. So the decision to insert BBE is based on how I want that sound to come through the speaker. The right way to think of BBE is not a guitar tone processor, but a speaker processor. When I want the speakers to respond in a vintage correct fashion, the BBE is off. When I want it to respond in a more modern way, I turn it on.
There are plenty of times when BBE will "ruin" a perfectly good tone. But other times it's the perfect conduit between a good tone and the speakers that will carry it to the ear or microphone.
All good points. And just to reiterate, it's just a friendly debate. The OD pedal is a decent parallel philosophically. (not scientifically because it doesn't alter phase, etc.) But yeah, it's like you spend $1700 on an amp just to put a $90 stompbox in front of it. I ALWAYS run a driver pedal in front, no matter what amp, so I'm agreeing that it's beneficial. It's just kind of funny that by the same logic I'm not using the "wrong amp" if I have to put a $90 solid state OD in front of it to get my tone, but I am if I put a BBE in the loop.
If a guy is using a Marshall, then taking a BBE and cranking the knobs in an attempt to emulate a beefier, more Boogie Recto type of sound, he's got the wrong amp. After 12:00 the knobs on a BBE are really acting as a shelving lo/hi boost EQ in conjunction with the BBE process, and I can see where you'd come up with that philosophy. But in my case, I certainly don't leave the BBE on all the time. It's on about half the time, and I have different programs where it comes in or out of the loop, via MIDI. So the decision to insert BBE is based on how I want that sound to come through the speaker. The right way to think of BBE is not a guitar tone processor, but a speaker processor. When I want the speakers to respond in a vintage correct fashion, the BBE is off. When I want it to respond in a more modern way, I turn it on.
There are plenty of times when BBE will "ruin" a perfectly good tone. But other times it's the perfect conduit between a good tone and the speakers that will carry it to the ear or microphone.
J
Jeff Dunne
Guest
Re: BBE/exciter in your guitar rack - anyone use one?
I was more referencing to when it ruins a good tone, which I find is more often than not
.
I just find that most people running a BBE are using it on something like a Rectifier to tighten it up and get more saturation out of it without it farting out, when an ENGL Powerball essentially is that.
I was more referencing to when it ruins a good tone, which I find is more often than not
.I just find that most people running a BBE are using it on something like a Rectifier to tighten it up and get more saturation out of it without it farting out, when an ENGL Powerball essentially is that.
