Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

[Demanic]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

Tube amps lose for sure then. [emoji14] You've got to replace the tubes when using them regularly. Where they've got the edge is that a great many of them were built in the time that point to point soldering was the height of technology. Because of that, they're very easy for anybody with a soldering iron to replace parts in. A modern tube amp with a circuit board has no edge in reliability or longevity compared to a similarly constructed solid state amp.

I think that the comparison was tube vs digital, not tube vs solid state.
The only thing that a tube amp would survive better than a solid state is possibly an EMP.

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[LLL]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

The "flying leads" chassis-mounted pots in old tube amps trump the PCB-mounted pots on the new tube amps.

Same with jacks.

Hell, some of these new tube amps look like computers inside with ribbon cables and ****.

 

[LLL]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

Also, try modding amp with a PCB (newer) vs. turret board (older).

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

Also, try modding amp with a PCB (newer) vs. turret board (older).

Yeah, but that's just because they're older. No reason you couldn't do a point to point solid state amp.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

The "flying leads" chassis-mounted pots in old tube amps trump the PCB-mounted pots on the new tube amps.

Same with jacks.

Hell, some of these new tube amps look like computers inside with ribbon cables and ****.

Are ribbon cables inherently bad?

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[Demanic]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

Yeah, but that's just because they're older. No reason you couldn't do a point to point solid state amp.

No, if you're willing to pay for the labor.

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[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

Why isn't there a digital amp/modeler out there with an iconic tone that everyone wants to replicate? In fact why are digital amps hell bent on copying the tone of iconic tube amps (or even not so iconic ones)? ..and why don't they ever really get there?. Answer that in a way that shows modelers in a more positive light (than tube amps) and you'll have the answer to the OP's question

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

Are ribbon cables inherently bad?

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Depends on whats traveling on them, but because ribbon cables conductors travel perfectly parallel to their adjacent conductors, they can induct noise into the signal more than a shielded conductor or paths where adjacent signals are moved to alternate path etc. A lot of little ribbon cables you see are power, grounds, and communication/control conductors -so no effect on signal.

These issues are what PCB designers and Electrical engineers get paid to mitigate of course. -if they do a good job -a ribbon cable is not a worry.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

EEPROM will leak its storage after 10-20 years but you can refresh the firmware a hundred thousand times before it loses the ability to store anything. Conservatively, if you had to refresh the firmware every decade, you could still get a million years out of it without any extra costs, unlike tube changes that are more frequent and expensive.

You're right. The better technology works for decades without needing replacements. It's digital.

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absolutely laughable and ignoring my point completely. I said in my original post that my Sunn model T from the 70s still has its original tubes in it and sounds great. Line 6 amps from ten years ago are all broken down and crapping out. Sorry, you're just not correct in your assessment. Digital amps break as soon as they get hot and dusty. Tube amps from 60 years ago are still cranking up and rattling walls.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

I wonder how the current PCB-based tube amps will hold up 50 years from now. Back then, (and boutique amps today), they were made to be fixed, and parts were plentiful. Every town had an electronics guy that could understand how it worked and get it back working. These days, companies don't hold on to PC boards from discontinued amps for very long. My guess is that it is all part of the disposable culture.

 

[LLL]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

I wonder how the current PCB-based tube amps will hold up 50 years from now. Back then, (and boutique amps today), they were made to be fixed, and parts were plentiful. Every town had an electronics guy that could understand how it worked and get it back working. These days, companies don't hold on to PC boards from discontinued amps for very long. My guess is that it is all part of the disposable culture.

Yes.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

My guess is they will still hold up better than the modelers.. ' PCB or not they'll need to be a lot more robust/better put together/higher quality etc considering the kind of voltage/heat that tube amps have to handle. I don't think a modeler needs to deal with much more of that stuff than an iphone..

 

[Swampy]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

Technology is everywhere. Doesn’t mean I want it in all my things.....I’d rather have a ‘69 Chevelle over a Tesla.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

I don't know- I'd like to know how the heat of tubes affects the PC boards over many many years.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

I don't know- I'd like to know how the heat of tubes affects the PC boards over many many years.

....kinda obvious

...everybody knows that's going to increase the mojo bigtime :bigthumb:

 

[dystrust]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

I don't know- I'd like to know how the heat of tubes affects the PC boards over many many years.

Heat generally isn't good for that stuff. Overall it probably depends on the amp layout and design of the cabinet; I'd think that something like a Marshall head would hold up pretty well over the years because the tubes are above the board and heat rises. Something like a Fender combo or Mesa Mark series has the tubes under the board which is a point against them, though they both tend to be pretty well ventilated in the back. The only problematic design I can think of is the original AC-30; the wiring in those looks like a rat's nest, the cabinet is pretty well sealed (compared to a Fender at least) and the top vents are tiny. I don't know if it's true, but I heard that Dave Grohl quit taking his AC-30s on the road because they were constantly overheating and breaking down.

 

[Despair]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

Mesa was one of the ones heavily advertising using heavier PCBs and thicker copper traces to make for more rugged PCBs. With proper ventilation, those can be more rugged than point to point construction.

I used a Sundown amp that was pretty awesome... Until it became an electrocution hazard when multiple solder joints desoldered themselves in use. Point to point badly done can be unbelievably dangerous.

A properly built PCB can outlast a well built point to point. But a well built point to point is easier to mod and repair.

AC-30s are pretty infamous for problems on tour. IIRC, Brian May was taking something like 9 of them along, so he always had 3 working for his stage rig at any time... And they were modded with added cooling fans and vents. And still failed. Though some of that is his preference for Alnico Blues (two 15W speaker in a 30W amp, right at the edge of tolerance there, and then he hits the amps with treble boost and runs them all-out... recipe for constant speaker repair. And fried power sections if the speakers fail spectacularly enough.) Tough when your sound is built around a particular gear combination.

 

[ibanezrocks]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

absolutely laughable and ignoring my point completely. I said in my original post that my Sunn model T from the 70s still has its original tubes in it and sounds great. Line 6 amps from ten years ago are all broken down and crapping out. Sorry, you're just not correct in your assessment. Digital amps break as soon as they get hot and dusty. Tube amps from 60 years ago are still cranking up and rattling walls.

You're avoiding a technical discussion completely and throwing out a single anecdotal example as if that settles it.

Why would a Line 6 from ten years ago be broken down? Why would it get hot if it doesn't have tubes? Why would there be dust inside the unit when most modelers are sealed, or if not, why are regular expensive tube changes considered acceptable maintenance but a cheap can of compressed air isn't?

Are you trying to make the argument that tubes don't need to be replaced more frequently than 50 years?

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[jeremy]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

i saw a few examples of digital modeling on display in videos from the last crossroads and they sounded great!! right up till they were side by side with a big tweed twin.

 

[dystrust]

Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

Why would a Line 6 from ten years ago be broken down?

Have you ever opened a Line 6 amp? Everything about it screams "CHEAP" from the thin PCB to the board-mounted pots and jacks. I'm not saying that tube amps are automatically better; Peaveys and Crates look pretty similar under the hood, and have similar reputations for poor reliability. It's more accurate to say that some things are built to last while others aren't, and most modelers fall into the latter category.

Why would it get hot if it doesn't have tubes?

My laptop gets hot, but it doesn't have any tubes. Maybe there are other electronic components that give off heat as well, like CPUs or power amp transistors... :lol:

Why would there be dust inside the unit when most modelers are sealed, or if not, why are regular expensive tube changes considered acceptable maintenance but a cheap can of compressed air isn't?

I think this says more about general build quality than it does about specific maintenance. Line 6 knows that modelers become obsolete pretty quickly in the grand scheme of things, so they don't bother building them to last. Their products are also designed to hit a specific price point.

On the other end of the scale I heard of a Soldano SLO owned by a studio in the UK. The studio flooded and the amp spent 2 weeks underwater, but after drying it out they fired it up and it still worked. The pots weren't even scratchy because SLOs are designed to be bullet-proof, and you pay for that.