Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
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ibanezrocks
HardtailPisser
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
So we're comparing cheap modelers to expensive tube amps? Why not the modelers that actually show what the technology can do? If we're talking about which technology is better, we have to compare the best: we should be talking Helix and not Spyder or pocket pod.
Again, he's trying to push one example of a broken cheap amp onto the entirety of digital technology. It's an absurd strawman.
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So we're comparing cheap modelers to expensive tube amps? Why not the modelers that actually show what the technology can do? If we're talking about which technology is better, we have to compare the best: we should be talking Helix and not Spyder or pocket pod.
Again, he's trying to push one example of a broken cheap amp onto the entirety of digital technology. It's an absurd strawman.
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dystrust
Well-known member
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
High end modelers like a Helix, Kemper, or AxeFx are built like a computer because that's essentially what they are. Compared to a Spyder or Pocket POD the PCBs are heavier and the pots and other components are better quality, but they're still not in the same league as the "expensive tube amp". Amps like the SLO and many vintage tube amps were designed and built to last for decades while most amps built recently aren't.
I haven't tried a Helix, and I didn't care for the Kemper I tried, but I thought the AxeFx was awesome. The main reason I don't own one is because they're really expensive. The second reason is that I can get my Marshall serviced if something goes wrong, whereas a broken AxeFx makes a great (and very expensive) door stop.
High end modelers like a Helix, Kemper, or AxeFx are built like a computer because that's essentially what they are. Compared to a Spyder or Pocket POD the PCBs are heavier and the pots and other components are better quality, but they're still not in the same league as the "expensive tube amp". Amps like the SLO and many vintage tube amps were designed and built to last for decades while most amps built recently aren't.
I haven't tried a Helix, and I didn't care for the Kemper I tried, but I thought the AxeFx was awesome. The main reason I don't own one is because they're really expensive. The second reason is that I can get my Marshall serviced if something goes wrong, whereas a broken AxeFx makes a great (and very expensive) door stop.
Jacew
New member
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
Actually, if they would have been built like computers, you could switch standardized parts in them, easily re-install and retrofit software, upgrade and such. Then they would last.
But they are not.
Actually, if they would have been built like computers, you could switch standardized parts in them, easily re-install and retrofit software, upgrade and such. Then they would last.
But they are not.
dystrust
Well-known member
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
They're proprietary computers. My remark refers more to how the hardware is constructed, not the software they run.
They're proprietary computers. My remark refers more to how the hardware is constructed, not the software they run.
Jacew
New member
dystrust
Well-known member
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
Agreed. I cherry picked the SLO as an extreme example of engineering and build quality.
Agreed. I cherry picked the SLO as an extreme example of engineering and build quality.
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
Old amps had fewer components & simpler designs. Newer gen ones come with multi channels, eq & what not. These are good to buy in a region that has amp techs, US, UK, Aus are regiions that will have experienced amp techs spreadout widely, so fixing it is not difficult. Other parts of the world dont have an abundance of good techs that deal with tube tech & buying a single mesa head alone would cost 2-3 times the cost of modern top tier modelling, taxes & custom duties are a headache where i live.
I have got great results with tech21 gear into a ss(digital) power amp into a speaker cabinet. The whole thing ended up being cheap & maintanence free so far. I would not go back to tube during this age of time, good to have one around for reference but for gigging there are better options as alternatives for me that are lighter & space saving too.
Old amps had fewer components & simpler designs. Newer gen ones come with multi channels, eq & what not. These are good to buy in a region that has amp techs, US, UK, Aus are regiions that will have experienced amp techs spreadout widely, so fixing it is not difficult. Other parts of the world dont have an abundance of good techs that deal with tube tech & buying a single mesa head alone would cost 2-3 times the cost of modern top tier modelling, taxes & custom duties are a headache where i live.
I have got great results with tech21 gear into a ss(digital) power amp into a speaker cabinet. The whole thing ended up being cheap & maintanence free so far. I would not go back to tube during this age of time, good to have one around for reference but for gigging there are better options as alternatives for me that are lighter & space saving too.
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
Gig a 50 yr old amp on regular weekly basis via air with interconnecting flights, how much will this cost because ata case will be required, that will raise the weight + luggage charges, also can it really survive such journeys for next 10yrs without repairs? Thats probably why giiging pros embrace newer modeling tech. Its about convenience first, followed by performance & then the sound to most of them. They have guys to dial in their modelers for them, something not everyone that buys these is capable of. I wouldnt buy one myself either because my needs are limited. Its easier to replace a fractal unit with another if it failed, its 50+ amp & fx unit, thats cheaper than replacing a single amp head that cost the same as it & heavy to lug around.
The most expensive part on an fractal pcb board is the processor, if it fails or the board fails, you ship the unit back to them for repairs. They replace the board or the processor, its no longer a door step. Would you keep a amp as a huge door step because the transformer failed?
Gig a 50 yr old amp on regular weekly basis via air with interconnecting flights, how much will this cost because ata case will be required, that will raise the weight + luggage charges, also can it really survive such journeys for next 10yrs without repairs? Thats probably why giiging pros embrace newer modeling tech. Its about convenience first, followed by performance & then the sound to most of them. They have guys to dial in their modelers for them, something not everyone that buys these is capable of. I wouldnt buy one myself either because my needs are limited. Its easier to replace a fractal unit with another if it failed, its 50+ amp & fx unit, thats cheaper than replacing a single amp head that cost the same as it & heavy to lug around.
regan
New member
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
Why would you eat a tofu steak that tastes 'identical' to beef when an actual steak is freely available in the next aisle?
When digital modelling/solid state breaks away from cloning old voxes, fenders & marshalls & do something 'new' then they may bring value to the table.
My opinion is why would I spend thousands on a kemper rig when I can get an ac15 and/or deluxe reverb at a similar price point, & like many have pointed out they don't become obselete & will always sound like a vox or fender
The only worry is actual valves may go out of production or become unavailable one day but I don't see that happening in my lifetime
Why would you eat a tofu steak that tastes 'identical' to beef when an actual steak is freely available in the next aisle?
When digital modelling/solid state breaks away from cloning old voxes, fenders & marshalls & do something 'new' then they may bring value to the table.
My opinion is why would I spend thousands on a kemper rig when I can get an ac15 and/or deluxe reverb at a similar price point, & like many have pointed out they don't become obselete & will always sound like a vox or fender
The only worry is actual valves may go out of production or become unavailable one day but I don't see that happening in my lifetime
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dystrust
Well-known member
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
What do they charge to service a unit that's out of warranty or purchased used? And what does one do when they no longer make the boards or CPUs? I'm pretty sure that Dagnall hasn't made transformers since the early to mid 80s, but I can get a company like Mercury Magnetics or Heyboer to sell me a replacement transformer for a 70s Marshall. I'd be willing to bet that the original AxeFX is no longer repairable, and the Axe II will be there shortly if it isn't already.
What do they charge to service a unit that's out of warranty or purchased used? And what does one do when they no longer make the boards or CPUs? I'm pretty sure that Dagnall hasn't made transformers since the early to mid 80s, but I can get a company like Mercury Magnetics or Heyboer to sell me a replacement transformer for a 70s Marshall. I'd be willing to bet that the original AxeFX is no longer repairable, and the Axe II will be there shortly if it isn't already.
ibanezrocks
HardtailPisser
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
Why? Because you get 100 amps + cabs + pedals for the price of one tube amp.
Several modelers include amp models that don't exist in the real world, it's just not a marketing point because most people buy gear to imitate someone else's tone, tube players included.
If all you want is one amp and you don't care about easy recording or low volume practicing, by all means a tube amp is the easiest way to get what you want. But comparing modeling amps to tofu is just a lame attempt to sound tough.
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Why? Because you get 100 amps + cabs + pedals for the price of one tube amp.
Several modelers include amp models that don't exist in the real world, it's just not a marketing point because most people buy gear to imitate someone else's tone, tube players included.
If all you want is one amp and you don't care about easy recording or low volume practicing, by all means a tube amp is the easiest way to get what you want. But comparing modeling amps to tofu is just a lame attempt to sound tough.
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Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
For me, the ease and weight of a Fractal for a gigging player is the reason I chose it. I don't use a ton of amps inside of it, but man, it is light and sounds great through every PA I've ever used it through. Festival soundpeople tell me that it is super-easy to mix, too.
For me, the ease and weight of a Fractal for a gigging player is the reason I chose it. I don't use a ton of amps inside of it, but man, it is light and sounds great through every PA I've ever used it through. Festival soundpeople tell me that it is super-easy to mix, too.
Jacew
New member
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
I think technical limitations can work out great to fuel creativity.
I think technical limitations can work out great to fuel creativity.
Nostalgic Distortion
New member
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
This entire thread is sacrilegious....
Tubes are king!!!
Plus somehow I don’t see kids two generations down the line still getting excited about a Helix the way younger people are still digging vintage Fender’s, Marshall’s, Etc. today???
Maybe though, I’m sure Leo wasn’t thinking that people would be spending thousands of dollars for, & still playing through, his early 1950’s & 1960’s circuits nearly 70 years later?
This entire thread is sacrilegious....
Tubes are king!!!
Plus somehow I don’t see kids two generations down the line still getting excited about a Helix the way younger people are still digging vintage Fender’s, Marshall’s, Etc. today???
Maybe though, I’m sure Leo wasn’t thinking that people would be spending thousands of dollars for, & still playing through, his early 1950’s & 1960’s circuits nearly 70 years later?
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
I dunno about that.
I've seen kids these days getting excited about the awesome sound quality of . . . cassette tapes.
No telling what trendy fads will pop up in the future.
I dunno about that.
I've seen kids these days getting excited about the awesome sound quality of . . . cassette tapes.
No telling what trendy fads will pop up in the future.
regan
New member
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
Who actually needs 100 amps + cabs + pedals? IMO for what I want you need a scooped BF type amp, a mid heavy Brit style amp couple of modulation pedals an OD, delay & wah, other genres may want another setup (jc120 & boogie for example) it's a cliche but tone is in the fingers, many albums (and indeed artists careers) have been achieved with as little as 1 to 3 amps. Of those 100+ amps 90% are going to be in the ball park of what I mentioned & the other 10% would not be usable to me aside from novelty value
Nope, it's a fair analogy, both are products intended to synthesise/facsimile existing products which are readily available sorry to trigger you but it's not acting tough it's stating the obvious, as you said yourself
And you'll have what you want for life, I remember when the 1st Jurrasic Park was released everybody thought the special fx were incredible & indiscernible from real life, now 25 years later people can notice the flaws & holes, I wouldn't be surprised if in 25 years we'll lament 'Kemper' tones on to be classic records & think this would've sounded so much better if they'd just used a Marshall & SM57
Who actually needs 100 amps + cabs + pedals? IMO for what I want you need a scooped BF type amp, a mid heavy Brit style amp couple of modulation pedals an OD, delay & wah, other genres may want another setup (jc120 & boogie for example) it's a cliche but tone is in the fingers, many albums (and indeed artists careers) have been achieved with as little as 1 to 3 amps. Of those 100+ amps 90% are going to be in the ball park of what I mentioned & the other 10% would not be usable to me aside from novelty value
Nope, it's a fair analogy, both are products intended to synthesise/facsimile existing products which are readily available sorry to trigger you but it's not acting tough it's stating the obvious, as you said yourself
So buying steak/valve amp(s) is the easiest way to get what you want.
And you'll have what you want for life, I remember when the 1st Jurrasic Park was released everybody thought the special fx were incredible & indiscernible from real life, now 25 years later people can notice the flaws & holes, I wouldn't be surprised if in 25 years we'll lament 'Kemper' tones on to be classic records & think this would've sounded so much better if they'd just used a Marshall & SM57
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?
This is exactly why I ended up with my Traynor. It does a pretty good BF type sound on the clean channel, and a decent lo-gain Marshall-y thing on the gain side. Pretty much checks all the boxes I want from an amp. And it still feels like option overload sometimes.
This is exactly why I ended up with my Traynor. It does a pretty good BF type sound on the clean channel, and a decent lo-gain Marshall-y thing on the gain side. Pretty much checks all the boxes I want from an amp. And it still feels like option overload sometimes.
