Black Spring/Vintage Springs/Stock Springs-Difference in tuning stability?

[SJ318]

Friends,
Read a lot lately about Callaham/Wilkenson-Gotoh Trems and I am very curious about the different springs everyone mentioned. Seemed the Raw Vintage got a big vote on Tone. But my question(along w/tone) is whether some springs come back to to starting zone better than others. So this is not a "angled claw" thread. This is a thread about absolutes. Can anyone speak to one type of spring being better when stretched coming back to "0" or in tune after use. Mr Collins, I think your name is, you seem quite scientific so I hope you and all forum braniacs respond.
I currently use the black coated springs that came w/my J.Beck strat. They work well but not 100% all the time. I have floating trem-fender w/heavy brass block from Killer Guitar. Block holes and Plate holes drilled so string travels from ball end to saddle w/nothing in the way, so there are no hang ups possible, roller nut, Locking tuners.
Thank You,
SJ

 

[David Collins]

Re: Black Spring/Vintage Springs/Stock Springs-Difference in tuning stability?

I wish I were more intimately familiar with all the spring varieties to mention, but unfortunately I've not spent much time comparing them. In theory, they should not have too notable an effect on how well a trem returns to a consistent neutral position. This is going to be influenced primarily by the condition of the fulcrum points at the boats and screws.

Of course if a spring were of exceptionally poor quality or temper the ends could possibly bend during extreme use and fail to return to original position, but any residual distortion when relaxed would take a pretty crappy spring, or more extreme stretch than would typically be seen in this application. Perhaps a more likely source would be poorly fit ends at the block or perhaps the claw, where the fit may shift when relaxed and fail to return to original position. It's a possibility, but I would say a much lesser concern compared to other factors like the fulcrum fit/friction, and of course all the other nut/tuner issues you already mentioned.

If they are wound from different gauge wire or of different alloy or temper, then they certainly will create a difference in feel, in stability of unbent strings when bending another, and quite reasonably be expected to have some influence on tone as well. A thicker/stiffer spring could improve the accuracy of returning to neutral over a lighter, looser set of springs, because the same range of force that determines neutral position will exist over a shorter range of their expansion. Example, if a loose spring increases .2" with a half pound of force while a tighter spring stretched only .1", then given the same amount of friction at the fulcrum, a tighter spring would return to within a more narrow margin of error.

Of course this all affects feel and quite likely tone as well, so you have to pick your battles and decide which goals receive highest priority. I don't know the properties of the individual springs in question here, but for the most part it will just come down to how they differ in stiffness.

 

[MkIII Renegade]

Re: Black Spring/Vintage Springs/Stock Springs-Difference in tuning stability?

My Carvin neck thru with Wilkinson had the stock black coated strings for many years. I didn't always notice excessive spring noise when stopping, but it had become very annoying in recent years, so I picked up some generic "Silent Guitar Tremelo Springs" on ebay with a black rubber sheath on the outside, which keeps them quiet, but they are also heavy duty/higher tension. Turns out, that's just what the Carvin needed! Being a neck thru guitar of slim design, it has always had extreme clarity, but not as much oomph as some guitars, especially for lower gain playing. But the heavy duty silent springs made a noticeable difference in authority and tone in all situations, I'm very impressed! The tension is still practically nothing, but I knew it had increased since I used to be able to do chord shimmers by merely using my palm aggressively on the Wilkinson trem, but that is now very difficult, so the bar is needed (I use 3 springs, one on the low E, one in the middle, one on the high E). The tuning stability does seem to be better now also, although I never really engage in wild trem use anyway.

I immediately bought 10 more silent springs (5-packs are $11). I will experiment with them on my other guitars as I get around to it to see if they improve. I felt like one of my Floyd equipped guitars did NOT improve overall with them and didn't need the extra tension, so I took them off, but it sure helped my Wilkinson equipped guitar.

 

[El Supremo]

Re: Black Spring/Vintage Springs/Stock Springs-Difference in tuning stability?

I use heavy springs (made for 7 strings as the webshop listed) and the springs that Schaller provided with their Lockmeister trem. I did notice the tone getting slightly more beefy and less metallic than with the stock springs. Stability was improved, but the stock ones were already 10+ years old.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Black Spring/Vintage Springs/Stock Springs-Difference in tuning stability?

You'd have to test them yourself to know.

I wouldn't believe 100%, any other tone test than one I did myself.

I've compared the Callaham tremolo and its springs to several of my Fender 62 Reissue tremolos and their springs and didn't notice a difference in the way the tremolos returned.

With the angled claw and set up method that I use, both returned in tune and returned about equally.

I didn't swap springs from one tremolo with those from another tremolo, so my observations don't isolate the effect of different springs on the same tremlo and guitar.

I did notice a slight difference in tone between the two tremolos with the Callaham sounding a little more solid but perhaps a little more steely. Hard to say for sure. I do prefer the arm on the Callaham and the whole thing is beautifully made.

I do have a set of the Vintage Steel springs. Haven't installed them yet.