Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

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Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

The point of the original post was to highlight that blades are much easier to use if a) you're experimenting with pickups in a test guitar b) switching pickups in and out often c) not sure whether you're going to use them in a G or F spaced axe and d) you don't want to buy the same pickup in different spacings (unless you want, say, a 2 JB axe on a Floyded guitar).

Not really... Gibson has used F spaced bridges for a long time now. Its a tempest in a tea cup.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Its dangerous to speak for "most people" I didnt know you had spent so much time interviewing 16-20 year olds at guitar center.

That Gibson uses some F spaced bridges doesn't negate any of the things I listed. In fact, it makes things more complicated because now you have to find out whether your Gibson is G or F spaced.

If you want to experiment with a pickup, if you don't know what spacing or position it's going to be in, if you don't know what your guitar's fretboard radius will be, and you don't want to buy multiple pickups that you may not use, a blade pickup is way more flexible than a pole piece pup. The only disadvantage I can think of is a blade pickup can't change the volume of the interior strings.

As far as Nuno, as I'm sure you know, most money in the musical gear business these days is made through mega stores like Guitar Center. I doubt most 16-20 year old rock players know who Nuno and Extreme are, but I'm pretty sure they know who Dime is. And going for blades is if the kids care enough to understand pickups and gear beyond buying whatever has Dime's name on it. Most people don't even know that at least 3 different companies make a Dime pickup with countless others making imitations. Sorting through all of this is what the diehards and badasses of this forum do.

Most importantly, I feel like you troll my threads just to quibble with whatever I say, Edgecrusher. Please stop if you can't be constructive, or you'll be ignored.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

If you want to champion blade polepiece pickups be my guess have at it. But it doesnt change the fact that you are using your personal myopic view of the world as evidence. Who are you to speak for "most 16-20 year olds" Please inform me how you know what they think or are you guessing? From all the 16-20 year olds that I know NONE of them know who Dime or Nuno are. But does that mean that somewhere there arent some that do? Nope it means from my limited observation this is what i see and i recognize that it is such and recognize that it is invalid to press it into service as a claim to bolster my position.

Blades "can be" worse for guitars with different radii' With polepieces if im inclined i can adjust each one individually i cant do that with a rail. Finding a correct pickup or spacing isnt hard nor is it such a huge tragedy to use an G spaced pickup under a F spaced bridge. Its been done thousands of times and many who have done it say they cant tell a difference.

The reasons you dont see legions of guitarists lining up for rails is they solve a small problem that only bother a few.

I sure as heck dont troll you but if you make silly assertions or state incorrect facts i might call you on it. Sorry that you dont like it when people disagree with you.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

There is more to the individual pole pieces than just classic aesthetics and adjustability for volume differences between the strings.

They DO have an affect on the tone and performance of the pup as well, depending on the specific material used (blend of metals), size and shape of the head, and length of the screw. This all adds to the variability of the pup just like the ability to change magnets does.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

They would be pointless I think as the poles run parallel to the strings and not directly under them.

The old version of the Q-Tuners had a similar design but the latest version lean more to the EMG look.

But one could bring the polepieces closer to the strings by raising them, making the signal hotter, just like with a normal pickup, if the adjustable PATB existed.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

The shape of the protruding metal affects the shape of the magnetic field. It has a role in dynamics and attack.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Okay, so apparently you don't think I'm entitled to make generalizations based upon what I've induced, and you think my generalizations are incorrect and that gets on your nerves so badly. Fine. But you're doing the exact same thing.

Now, let's deconstruct you.

"But it doesnt change the fact that you are using your personal myopic view of the world as evidence."

As are you. The question is, what makes your view more accurate than mine? The thing is, you don't really know what informs my views, so you can't really criticize the inductive process without knowing what it is and the information it's based from.

The difference is whether my "personal myopic view" is closer to reality than yours. I think it is, at least for the results I'm seeking. Only I know what I want. Only you know what you want.

"Please inform me how you know what they think or are you guessing?"

From teaching hundreds of kids in that age range, from paying attention to music marketing materials and research, from realizing that fewer and fewer custom options are available to players (noticed this at the LA Guitar Center when I was at GIT and at the Austin and Little Rock Guitar Centers--nearly everything is about cost and containing cost at the expense of quality--custom shops would be on every corner and import guitars wouldn't exist otherwise), following YouTube trends and the current djent movement, among other things. As a metal player, my demographic is very susceptible to trends, new advances in gear, and fads within the past few years, unlike the demographic of folks here who may be into vintage music (for me, 1980 and before).

"From all the 16-20 year olds that I know NONE of them know who Dime or Nuno are. But does that mean that somewhere there arent some that do?"

I guess Seymour isn't selling any Dimebuckers to young players then and no one under the age of 20 is a Pantera fan. And there are probably some people in that age who know who Nuno is. But it doesn't offset that Dime moves a lot more pickups than Nuno does and probably always will, not because there's anything wrong with Nuno but because Pantera was more popular than Extreme. Nuno modestly popularizing the blade pickup first didn't negate that Dime ultimately popularized it more and sold more units. So, your quibbling was irrelevant in the context of my statement, *even though you were right that other people popularized it before Dime.* The question is, why were you willing to be right at the expense of relevancy? I call that quibbling.

"Finding a correct pickup or spacing isnt hard nor is it such a huge tragedy to use an G spaced pickup under a F spaced bridge. Its been done thousands of times and many who have done it say they cant tell a difference."

It actually is, especially if you're not willing to throw money at the problem by trial and error of tons of pickups in tons of different guitars. SD's FB and support pages are bombarded with people asking, "Is this or that pup correct?" If it didn't make a difference, then gear wouldn't be made to compensate for these subtle design differences. Finding used gear that is exactly what one wants can be a challenge as well, especially with pickups.

I'm with you that some things matter more than others. You'll also notice early in the thread when I talked about how I thought poles really only made a difference with a low powered neck pickup far from the strings. We are not opposed on this, but I want to cut fewest corners possible.

If the options are out there, I want an optimal outcome by purchasing the parts that are optimal for the job. If that's too anal for you, so be it.

"Nope it means from my limited observation this is what i see and i recognize that it is such and recognize that it is invalid to press it into service as claim to bolster my position."

Again, this applies equally to you. It's not invalid because, as I said, I believe my inductive process is truer than yours regarding the types of gear that we have both tried for the outcome that I seek. And, even with differing tastes aside, taste doesn't account for the blade making it possible to buy fewer pickups that are usable in more types of guitars for the sake of experimentation.

"Blades are "can be" worse for guitars with different radii' With polepieces if im inclined i can adjust each one individually i cant do that with a rail. Finding a correct pickup or spacing isnt hard nor is it such a huge tragedy to use an G spaced pickup under a F spaced bridge. Its been done thousands of times and many who have done it say they cant tell a difference."

And this nonchalance comes from a fellow who carried on about import guitars with the same specs as custom models not being the same as custom shop works of art, and who went on and on about how I was overthinking fixed vs. Floyd for neckthru, and that the cost of custom shop models couldn't be justified in terms of dollars and cents precisely because they're works of art, which I questioned on a basis of value and utility and the inability of the average human ear to discern nuances in tone in recordings and during live situations?

You're also stating that fretboard radii can be a problem yet incorrect pole spacing isn't. Small details either do or do not matter, and if some do and some don't, we need to find a way to determine which ones matter and not side with whichever ones tickle your fancy just because it's your fancy. Exactly what does and what does not matter to you? And why or why not? No double standards allowed.

The rationale for blade over staggered pole piece is a staggered pole piece on a flat necked guitar could interfere with the strings if the action is low. This wouldn't happen on a blade and, even better, the blade is flexible because the spacing doesn't matter.

"The reasons you dont see legions of guitarists lining up for rails is they solve a small problem that only bother a few."

You do see legions lining up for them. Every EMG and Blackout that sells is a blade pickup. And legions of guitarists probably don't go through 5-10 combinations of pickup per axe to find exactly what they want. You can change these pickups around in any axe you want and that flexibility is great.

If you really want to get down to brass tacks, DiMarzio insists that you have an F space for both neck and bridge for F spaced guitars. Thankfully, they don't have to worry about neck and bridge models.

In light of that, the only downside to many SD's is you not only need to know whether you need a neck or bridge model, but also what spacing you want.

"I sure as heck dont troll you but if you make silly assertions or state incorrect facts i might call you on it. Sorry that you dont like it when people disagree with you."

And they're silly because you disagree with them? Again, perhaps you should learn to follow your own advice. I never said your views were wrong. I said some were impractical to my situation, like the Charlie Christian pickup.

I've justified my views and I've explained why I think yours are problematic, to which we can only say that the things that bother me don't bother you, etc.

You'll also notice that every time someone offers something, I tend to compliment them on it, including you, and I try to find merit in every comment. If I disagree, I find that it's usually because I'm trying something in a different context or genre, and I try to explain why I think that's wrong *for my situation*. The person can then reassess their statement in light of my situation. You could learn from that tact.

I feel as though you deeply, truly, want to be right in every single conversation, and have everyone acknowledge you as right, all the time, every single time. That's fine, but you'll not do it here. In fact, of the hundreds of kind people here who have helped me, *you're the only one who acts like this.*

So, I thank you for your time and input. It has been duly taken into consideration.

If you don't like me, no one is twisting your arm to respond to my threads. I'd rather not ignore you because we're all adults here, but this is dropping down to a Facebook thread level in terms of maturity, and if you keep acting this way and don't show yourself out, you will be ignored. This is your final warning.

Again, thank you.

And I appreciate everyone else who has stayed on topic with the OP.
 
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Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Woah I didn't even read that but just the length of it is astounding. Lets just take a step back from the keyboard for a moment and breath.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

guys, is it normal to have rail/blade pickups to be height adjusted to be very closer to the strings (even neck pickups) relative to the traditional pickups. i myself use a noname blade pickup in neck position, that only gives somewhat acceptable tone when it is very closer to strings. I dismissed it, thinking that the pickup was a dud. but recently i saw a DMZ fast track also being raised to be very closer to the strings.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

guys, is it normal to have rail/blade pickups to be height adjusted to be very closer to the strings (even neck pickups) relative to the traditional pickups. i myself use a noname blade pickup in neck position, that only gives somewhat acceptable tone when it is very closer to strings. I dismissed it, thinking that the pickup was a dud. but recently i saw a DMZ fast track also being raised to be very closer to the strings.

It seems DiMarzio thinks so: http://www.dimarzio.com/pickups/strat/hum-canceling-strat/cruiser-bridge

Having a total magnet pull that's about 40% less than standard single-coils also means The Cruiser® can be adjusted much closer to the strings for more power than stock pickups can achieve.

This is in regard to their Cruiser blade mode, but it uses a ceramic bar like all the rest, so I'd assume this thinking would apply to all their rails.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Ok, so all bickering aside, let's get back to your original post...

Hey guys,
Why aren't blades more popular relative to pole pieces?

Now, I'm aware that the entire point of pole pieces is they adjust individually. (to equalize string-to-string volume differences).

Actually, this premise is incorrect. As pointed out in several earlier posts, there are many other reasons for individual poles.

The rationale for the blade is flexibility. Even for people who don't use floating bridges, they may want to switch pickups back and forth between Strat and Gibson spacings, and blades make worrying about bridge spacing unnecessary.

Actually, no. The rational for the blade, even by the illustration you give, is simplicity not "flexibility"! The rational for poles is flexibility. They can be adjusted and changed to meet the needs of many situations.



I can understand being super concerned about string volume for someone who plays bluegrass or something like a B bender Tele where you want very specific strings to ring out relative to the others for use during hybrid picking (Brian Setzer comes to mind), but, for me, all string volume sounds even for most mid and high powered pickups in the bridge even when the pickup is lowered completely and the screws are flush.

Certainly if a pup is "lowered completely and the screws are flush" the string volumes of ANY pup will be more even because the relative differences of the pup-to-string distances become negligible.

Am I missing something cool here with the pole pieces? In light of the above, the blade would seem like a better design all around for most players.

Thanks.

YES. Absolutely! You are missing something here. There are different reasons for choosing blade vs pole pups other than volume differences. It is ONLY a "better design all around for most players" IF by "most players" you are implying that they are either beginners who don't know the choices available to them, or players who just don't care or don't want to be bothered (and this would also imply beginners).

It is certainly acceptable to ask such questions and to interject your personal opinions as in your original post, but when other very knowledgeable and experienced players answer your questions or point out the fallacies in your assumptions why do you argue with them as if you are the sole authority on the subject?! And if you indeed are the sole authority, then why do you ask the questions in the first place?
 
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Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Thanks GuitarDoc!

"YES. Absolutely! You are missing something here. There are different reasons for choosing blade vs pole pups other than volume differences. It is ONLY a "better design all around for most players" IF by "most players" you are implying that they are either beginners who don't know the choices available to them, or players who just don't care or don't want to be bothered (and this would also imply beginners)."

But we haven't really got down to what those differences are, exactly, aside from saying "tonal differences." What would happen if we took very popular pole piece designs and changed them to blade designs? How would their sound change in general? If we say, "Well that depends on other factors..." then we really are going nowhere because we haven't identified what things make a difference and in what way.

Also, if someone is experimenting with a pickup for the first time (effectively a beginner even if he has experience with other pickups) and does not know what it sounds like or what guitar it will go in, again, the blade is useful because you do not have to worry about string spacing. It becomes more modular than a traditional pickup that way if string spacing for pups is important to you, and it is to me.

"It is certainly acceptable to ask such questions and to interject your personal opinions as in your original post, but when other very knowledgeable and experienced players answer your questions or point out the fallacies in your assumptions why do you argue with them as if you are the sole authority on the subject?!"

Because previous people were quibbling and not addressing the question *within the context I gave them*, which was mainly focused on ease of swapping out pickups combined with the usefulness of adjusting string height *when screw height made little to no difference in string volume balance.* My annoyance with said person was that I could not even make the most harmless, general observation without his contesting it, not only on this thread but on other ones also. Disagreement is fine, but the tone with which it is voiced is important.

By saying, "Blades make a (vast) tonal difference," (which I was not aware of beyond that blades tend to be associated with designs with more treble thanks to the Lawrence design), we introduce a new context, and so the question takes on a broader dynamic. When people began bringing up things I had forgotten about, like screw length and alloy type, I began to see things I had not considered.

It may render the narrow premise of my previous question invalid from a tone standpoint, but not completely *for my purposes.* The reason why is there are so many variables that go into tone that I feel that focusing on pickup design aspects like magnet, screw alloy, length, and type is excessive when I am not willing to modify pickups to that extent. Therefore, for me, the tonal differences in a blade pickup do not override its ease of use as far as string spacing and experimentation. One has to also ask what is ultimately easier--modifying a pickup one's self, or simply buying a production line pickup that sounds very similar to what one is going for and accepting the compromise. I have nothing against pickup modification, but I need to have a better idea of how the many variables affect tone. Combine that with finding the right guitar and the permutations become nearly endless. So for me modifying a pickup becomes impractical when a tweak of EQ in the DAW will make enough of a change.

"And if you indeed are the sole authority, then why do you ask the questions in the first place?"

Everyone here is their own sole authority because tone is an individual thing within their own context and within their own genres. There's no accounting for taste. My question focused more on practicality and utility and less on perceptions of tone.

I asked what was the usefulness of a pole piece design relative to blades in the context I outlined. People have corrected me and said that the context is wider than that because the poles make a tonal difference. I have narrowed the context again by saying that the tonal difference made by poles is somewhat moot by the complexity introduced in a pole design regarding the components.

Essentially what it comes down to for me is not having to worry about the string spacing with a blade and not having to deal with screw height when adjustment seems to make little difference. The pole pieces may make a huge difference in tone in my favorite pickups (in my case, the Full Shred's hex poles), but, chances are, if I could have that exact same tone in a blade, I would probably take the blade because I could move the pickup around to different guitars with ease and not have to worry about string spacing.

Hope this answered your questions. :)
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Technically if you have enough screws or poles across a pup like a Carvin pup you can cover the same amount of space like a blade would but that would be a different design take as well.

Their are two main parts to any pickup performance and looks. You like the function of blades and that comes before how it looks to you and thats cool but for someone else the screws and pole look comes before performance or they might like both the performance and look of poles and screws.

Me I don't care either way as I own pups with both set ups and they both work for different sounds and different looks.

To go even a bit deeper as why screws and poles will never go away depending on who you play for or with they might want your guitar to look a certain way. You may say thats shallow and stupid but i've seen it happen and it's also happened to me where I didn't get a gig cause my gear didn't look the part or I didn't look the part.

Actually i'll give an even worse example some people won't hire you unless your guitar says (insert brand here) on the head stock.
 
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Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Technically if you have enough screws or poles across a pup like a Carvin pup you can cover the same amount of space like a blade would but that would be a different design take as well.

Their are two main parts to any pickup performance and looks. You like the function of blades and that comes before how it looks to you and thats cool but for someone else the screws and pole look comes before performance or they might like both the performance and look of poles and screws.

Me I don't care either way as I own pups with both set ups and they both work for different sounds and different looks.

To go even a bit deeper as why screws and poles will never go away depending on who you play for or with they might want your guitar to look a certain way. You may say thats shallow and stupid but i've seen it happen and it's also happened to me where I didn't get a gig cause my gear didn't look the part or I didn't look the part.

Actually i'll give an even worse example some people won't hire you unless your guitar says (insert brand here) on the head stock.

PATBs come to mind in the looks dept.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

I think rails have a Totalitarian aesthetic. You start with a pickup that's classic in appearance, with it's individual pole pieces, each dedicated to it's respective string, and then you replace it with long, straight lines that address all the strings indiscriminately, denying their individuality, unafraid of running perpendicular to the convention that preceded them. Very metal.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

The airgap pickup is the inevitable pickup design we've all pondered, but never experimented with. In Gibson marketing language, utilizing screws means the pickups are more user friendly and versatile, rendering the air-gap the most versatile and user friendly pup on the market.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/391212-new-design-proto-build-bone-36.html

I get the feeling blade pups are more economically efficient to make and are best used when the metal bar is ground down to the match the fretboard radius.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

Neither is better than the other hands-down. The main advantage of the blade design to me is no drop-out on string bends. Secondary is not having to worry much about F vs G spacing. The main disadvantage is lack of adjustability and not just for string to string balance, but coil to coil balance. Raising the screws will emphasize that coil over the other one and give you a more vintage/single coil-ish tone, assuming you drop the whole pickup a bit too. 12-screw pickups are even more versatile this way -- the second row of screws on a bridge pickup is almost like a parametric mid boost/cut. Can't do any of that with blades.

A secondary blade disadvantage is that the overwhelming majority of blade pickups I've seen, the blade is far more narrow than the head of the typical 5/40 fillister screw head, which means a less beefy tone. On the other hand, that may not necessarily be a bad thing since most blade pickups are high output models and the narrowness of the blades may act as something of a mud-governor, especially on neck pickups.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

+1

Blades are much less versatile than poles (see my previous post). Certainly, because of their simplicity and lack of adjustments, they are easier to use if you don't want the hassles of adjusting to get a more precise tone to fit your needs.
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

G&L makes Stratocaster- and Telecaster-inspired designs with threaded, adjustable polepieces.
And if you are interested in alternatives, just buy a Gil Yaron guitar with his pattented air-gap design concept pickups. A really cool idea on those pickups where you can both vary the magnetic strength for each string and independently also the height of the polepieces (the string to string volume balance) like with the G&L ones. So it has one more factor to control the tone. It would be awesome if Seymour Duncan would get a license for this design and make some. To me it is pretty much one of the most revolutionary changes in pickup design in the last couple of decades.
More info can be found here.

Oops I see I am too late 0v3nm4n already mentioned them ;).
 
Re: Blade vs. adjustable pole pieces

A secondary blade disadvantage is that the overwhelming majority of blade pickups I've seen, the blade is far more narrow than the head of the typical 5/40 fillister screw head, which means a less beefy tone.

I just installed some DiMarzio BC-1 and BC-2 (which are slightly hotter Air Norton S and Tone Zone S) pickups in a Strat, and I was shocked by how open and full-humbucker-ish they sound, especially compared to SD's single coil sized PAF's, the Little 59 and variants, so it might be true, but I don't think it's a genuine shortcoming of rails, at least not in practical terms. In fact, I'm planning to rewire the controls to allow for variable splitting in order to dial back some of the "beef".
 
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