Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

If you'd paid attention to the actual science section of my blog, you'd know that a 100 watt amp is only 3db louder than a 50 watt when both amps are operating at max volume.

Just curious about this. Does wattage actually equal to perceived volume? You say that 100w is 3db louder than a 50w so two 50w's would send exactly as much volume one 100w amp. Is this true? Cause I've only heard this theory as "two sound sources sending X db volume each will give total volume of X+3 db" Never had I heard that doubling the power is always just that 3db louder.
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

Does wattage actually equal to perceived volume?

Not in my opinion.

When people argue the whole 3db thing it's like it's a db drag race.... the 50w and 100w both running full throttle regardless of how it makes them sound.

The reality is that there's a huge difference in volume between a 100w Super Lead with it's volume at 7 or 8 in an effort to get some classic grind and a 100w Dual Rectifier with it's volume at 4 chugging away some high gain riffs.

Both are 100w. In theory they should be 0db difference...

Does anyone seriously believe that a 100w Super Lead is 0db different from a 100w Recto?

Does anyone seriously believe that a 50w Marshall 2204 is 3db quieter than a 100w Recto?

Does anyone seriously believe that a cranked 18w Marshall is more manageable than a modern, master volume amp?
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

If you'd paid attention to the actual science section of my blog, you'd know that a 100 watt amp is only 3db louder than a 50 watt when both amps are operating at max volume.

This is true, but remember that decibels are not a linear scale. When you say "only 3dB louder" you are in fact saying "only twice as much power."

A 10dB increase will be perceptibly twice as loud, but will deliver about 8X the sound energy to your ears. It is very easy to creep over the line from "loud enough" to "eardrums bleeding" if you are not careful.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

The reality is that there's a huge difference in volume between a 100w Super Lead with it's volume at 7 or 8 in an effort to get some classic grind and a 100w Dual Rectifier with it's volume at 4 chugging away some high gain riffs.

Both are 100w. In theory they should be 0db difference...

The volume setting will affect the power being sent from the amp. The 100W rating is just that - a rating of max available power - not a statement of what the amp will put out under every setting of the volume controls. Every gain stage in your signal path will have an impact on the output power.

The speaker cabinet has a profound impact on converting that electrical power into SPL. You can dramatically raise the apparent loudness of an amp by running it through a larger cabinet.

http://www.musiccenters.com/vol.html

It is a lot of fun to crank up a 100W head into a 4x12 and feel your bones shake. But you do not want to expose your ears to that kind of volume at close range for very long. Just ask Pete Townsend.

At distance from your cabs, SPL levels fall off with the cube of the distance. That means you have to put out 10X the power from your cab to fill a room that is twice as large. Meanwhile, near your rig you are turning your bones into jello.

The best solution is to get an amp that you can crank as needed to deliver your tone at practice levels, then mic into the PA to deliver your tone to the audience. This is the only solution that scales up as you play larger venues without subjecting your band and a quarter of your audience to harmful sound levels.

To those complaining about cymbals, a lot of drummers play louder when competing with a very loud guitar rig or three. If stage volumes are appropriate, your whole band will have better dynamics. Assuming you are into that kind of thing...
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

^ great, informative post! Thanks for that.
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

That I do believe that different 100w amps (Super Lead vs. Recto) do send different volume because they are designed differently so almost by definition they should have different volumes. But I just have hard time believing that that two 50 amps is exactly the same volume as one 100w amp of the exact same design and make. Or four 25w amps are the same as one 100w. I know how the decibel scale works as it depends where you are on the scale. The 3db difference is (perceived) different with 5db vs 8db or 100db vs 103db.
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

You know hopefully at some point you get enough seat of the pants training that you don't need all the math.

I almost always use a 4x12 for gigs unless it is a small show or I am sitting in with someone then whatever works or what is available. I mostly use a 20wt head these days but I pull out the big gun from time to time.
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

Whoever plays guitars on the gig whit me on drums, need high volumes. A 50W Marshall JCM 900 was dimed full on to be able to cope with the volume from my drumming. That is the "real" situatian and not an assumption. No 50 watt amp ever was loud enough to be heard when a drummer like me hits the crash cymbal or blast beats. 100 or more is needed to have the right sound and volume with heavy hitting drummers. If it doesn't shake your pantaloons when you play it, why you play it at all? :)
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

Regarding the volume difference between a 50 watt Marshall and a 100 watt Marshall: either one will destroy your hearing so that you'll have constant ringing and hissing and a loss of treble frequencies for the REST OF YOUR LIFE.

Just like me. Starts when you notice that you can't understand the soft spoken gal sitting across the table from you in a bar or restaurant and just keeps going downhill from there.

At 63, I now wear hearing aids all of the time.

Back when I played Marshalls I always used 50 watt Marshalls. Didn't have to crank them up quite so high to get that classic Marshall crunch and singing tone.

Yngwie and Jeff Beck like 50 watt Marshalls too, probably for the same reason.

It's fun! But you won't know the damage you've caused to yourself until you hit your 30's and 40's. And then, just like Pete Townshend and Jeff Beck, you'll move to smaller amps. But it'll be to late.

Music should heal...not cause physical damage.

But we all have the right to ignore the wisdom of those who've traveled that path before us and to make our own choices in life.
 
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Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

^ very wise, Lew.

Hearing protection, people. Regardless of your amp wattage.
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

You know hopefully at some point you get enough seat of the pants training that you don't need all the math.

True, and I'm not saying you need to whip out the slide rule to figure out where to set your master volume. If you ignore the reality of how sound works and how the human ear perceives it, you will not have great sound.

And if you understand sound, you will know why a 100W amp is not twice as loud as a 50W amp, and that two 50W amps do indeed have the same power output as a single 100W amp. (This is the basis of "bridged mono" mode.) You will also be armed with practical knowledge about the many other factors that determine how loud any setup will sound to a room full of people.

If you believe the only purpose of your amp is to make *you* think you sound awesome, or if you are playing to audiences of 25 people or less, then you probably don't need to worry so much about how sound levels drop off with distance. But if you care about what the guy in the back row is going to hear, you do need to give this some thought. If you want to use your 100W stack to "fill" a 500-seat club with music, you are going to be blasting some people while others will not even hear you over the bass player. If your drummer is set up between two stacks plus the bass amp, he'll be slamming the kit with everything he's got.

When you are standing near your amp on stage, you will hear a different mix than anyone else in the room. The further you get away from your cabinet, the more the other sound sources in the room will stand out. If you care that your audience hears the same awesomeness that is fueling your groove, your PA should be where the sound is coming from and your sound guy should be able to control the mix from out in front of the stage. If you insist that your point-source amp+cab is going to do the whole job, then the mix in the room is going to be hit-or-miss.

Choose your amp and adjust it according to the tone you wish to have, whether it's a 100W Marshall or a 15W Fender. This (your ideal tone) should not change whether you are practicing in your bedroom, rehearsing in an empty warehouse, or playing a gig at the local club. But you should not be choosing an amp based on whether it is "loud enough" to fill said club; that is best left to the PA system. If the houses you play don't have a PA, your band should invest in one. It is actually less expensive in the long run than playing the "who has the loudest rig" game with your bandmates.

I've got mild tinnitus from exposure to loud music over the years, and I feel the aftereffects any time I crank up one of my amps "for fun." Believe me, I do not want to ever experience full-on tinnitus, and you don't either. I also don't know too many people who can play a musical instrument worth a damn without being able to hear what they (and the rest of their band) are playing.

Don't let the "math" discourage you. Using common sense and taking the time to understand sound reinforcement is a good investment for anyone hoping to play music for the enjoyment of others.
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

this thread taught me a lot from the OP's perspective; sorry for my abrasiveness, I am working on that ;)

I have seen tons of bands as I go to shows every weekend, or every other weekend. I listen to metal/rock, and EVERYONE uses at least a 212, but mainly 412s really. Putting on a show really involves that, otherwise many more would just go direct in and listen to their monitors ;)

I like the insights here; different strategies of amps/speakers for different things.

SO I JUST BOUGHT A MONSTER UBER MONDO STACK OF DOOOOOM! for my bass, I got two gallien 410s (an 8x10 stack) http://www.musiciansfriend.com/ampl...x10-ultralight-bass-speaker-cabinet-with-horn

don't worry, they still have more of these if you too NEED A STACK OF DOOM :banana:
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

Heh, I just revved up the Butcher with both 4x12's connected last night for the first time in a while.

err, yeah, this is awesome.

yes, I wear earplugs.
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

DOOM ON King Izzo \m/ \m/

I have had custom 30db earplugs for years, my ears are certainly far from damage free however...
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

If it wasn't for ear plugs, my hearing would be **** right now. I always leave them out for a few songs and then put them in, though.
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

I never go without them, drumming is especially hard on the ears.
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

I think everybody is missing the point. . He never said lower Watts was worse. He was explaing a situation where the headroom of a 100 Watt amp is practical
 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

Adam's article is absolutely correct, as usual.

It's all about application - application for the player, the music, and the venue. If you bought or brought the wrong tool for the job, or can't see why someone else might need something you deem "overkill" or "unecessary", that's your problem.

That being said...

 
Re: Blog: The 100 Watt Amp -- Too Much Firepower? Or Juuuuust Right?

If it wasn't for ear plugs, my hearing would be **** right now. I always leave them out for a few songs and then put them in, though.

ya, earplugs are HUGE when protecting your most valuable audio equipment. another bonus of the custom earplugs is you can switch the filters and use them for attenuating 15 or 30 DB depending on the need, like if you go to a movie theater = 100DB.

also, I am using mine right now along with my sony earbuds as they are compatible with earbuds and provide great sound isolation and comfort :)

ps I am trying binaural beats and you need headphones for them: http://www.amazon.com/Binaural-Beat-Brainwave-Subliminal-Systems/e/B004MAQGDY
 
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