Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

G

Gooch

New member
My tech installed treble bleeds on my Les Paul, for both humbuckers. It works as expressed: stays clear and clean when rolling back the volume. But, I feel like the bridge humbucker especially lost some overall bass and power when on 10.

Can treble bleeds contribute to some power loss? I feel like it lost a little bit of its balls. ??
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

I've noticed that too. I think it's possible.
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

The cap is being shorted when the volume is at 10.

I think you might want to evaluate how the new change in sweep affects your perception.
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

My understanding is that there's still some resistance through a typical pot even at the end of its travel- generally around 1% of its max value, I think. Different value pots can make a guitar sound different even when they're maxed. The exception would be no-load pots, designed to fully short out at the end of their travel, effectively removing them from the circuit.

I think it's not inconceivable that a bleed cap might still pass enough treble for the guitar to be slightly brighter when the volume pot is on full, especially with the higher value pots used in humbucker guitars. (For a 500K pot that 1% is still 5000Ω, vs zero for a cap... at audible frequencies anyway.) I doubt this would affect the low end at all. Still, if the sound is a little bit brighter, it might easily seem as if there's a bit less bass.

Then again, I'm no expert- maybe there's something going on there that we're missing and the low end actually is different now.

As gregory said, though, perception can be tricky and that's certainly true when it comes to tone. Just knowing something's been altered can predispose us to expect a change. And when you're looking for a difference it's easier to find one, whether it's real or not.

Studies have shown that people can perceive portions of the same food to taste differently when they see different colors. It might be interesting to see a study done using a guitar with switchable tops in various colors. If the test subjects believed there were several guitars, would the red one seem to sound different from the blue one or the yellow or silver one? I don't know. But it wouldn't surprise me if it did.
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

Yes, I notice the change with & w/o a treble bleed with volume on 10. None of my pots seem to give a zero ohms readong (dmm zero error accounted & range set to 200 ohms), some are 1.3ohms & other 3ohms, thats enough to keep the cap in circuit even at 10. Bourns, CTS, Alpha no name ones too.

I don't mind it though since it isn't heard in a mix & the benefits outweigh the issue. I don't prefer treble bleeds on all my guitars, some are better off without it. To my ears treble bleeds arent affecting the bass as much as they are affecting the treble freqs, mids seem to be untouched at full volume. No power loss here
 
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Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

You'd need a controlled test to deternine how much residual resistance is necessary for the effect to be audible. Saying you can hear it when you know ahead of time that it is there is not a controlled test.
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

gregory said:
I think you might want to evaluate how the new change in sweep affects your perception.
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I did intentionally pick the word perception to touch on the known fact that the human auditory system is fallible when it comes to interpreting physical reality, but the main thrust of my suggestion was a bit different. There is a massive difference between the way a volume pot behaves when there's a treble bleed and when there isn't, especially when the tone control is modern wired. If you think about this difference and are used to no treble bypass on the top leg of the voltage divider (I hate that term, bleed; brake fluid is not being discarded), it makes sense for someone to wish there could be even more fullness once you get to 10 (more seems always better when it comes to electric guitar; it needs to go to 11!) and think, gee, things were always full with the old control; bass must be missing.
 
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Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

All you really need is a switch to hear it in realtime. The Satriani guitars have had a push/pull treble bleed since the late 80s I believe. Just find one of those and listen.

I have some guitars I’ve wired so that the in-between single coil tones have the bleed, and the humbuckers don’t. That’s not a direct comparison but I played the guitar(s) before and after that mod, as well as having extensive experience with these things.

I think some of you are right that on a per-pot basis, some pot tolerances are such that there is some variation to how they’ll handle a bleed cap on “10”. I’ve personally noticed the difference before/after and I wouldn’t necessarily classify myself as bias prone in this field. But I have also admittedly never bench tested it..

Also did you know that all the Froot Loops are the same flavor? Just the color is different.
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

Simply using real time switching on a JS guitar won't be enough to overcome perceived differences if they are psychologically derived. And make no mistake, psychologically derived differences are perfectly normal to the human condition. There is no shame in this.
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

I don’t think I will ever subscribe to that reasoning. There is a difference between the uneducated tester and one who is skilled in the art. But for example if you put me in front of a test rig blind, and told me to play A/B and I didn’t know what the delta was, I might play a smattering of rock riffs and tell you I can’t tell. If however, you told me the difference was a high pass cap inserted, even though the pot was maxed out, I would immediately begin to play scratching, pick scraping phrases and rhythms, and pick the strings in ways that would exacerbate the deltas. Then I could show you “See? When I do THIS, you can tell the difference. And this is fundamentally different from listener bias. One is changing your brain to fit your narrative, the other is perfecting the test parameters to magnify the differences.

A mildly strummed A chord hardly tells you anything for most critical listening tests.

At the end of the day, we might all agree the difference is not there, or not enough for anyone to be concerned with. But the uninformed blind test is really more of a cheat than the informed one, if you have skilled R&D members truly looking to analyze a phenomenon.
 
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Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

Why is it blind vs trained? Trained and blind is the best way to go. Not understanding the importance of blinding is a huge pitfall in constructing an objective test.
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

Agree to disagree but no, not when there are an infinite number of ways to excite a string. So many so, that you can even tell who is playing, like when Eddie Van Halen and Ted Nugent swapped rigs and each sounded like “themselves”. There are differences on a guitar that I won’t know or feel UNTIL I use a fuzz, or play further up the neck, or play a loud tube amp that’s feeding SPL back to the amp.

It’s the responsibility of the one conducting the test to craft a test that excercises the deltas.

It’s different from HiFi testing in that we are the creators of the sound. With HiFi we are just passive listeners. I don’t mind blind tests there, but even then....if I told you nothing you’d be looking for a needle in a haystack. If I told you we were A/B-ing tweeters, you could focus on high frequency detail, giving it greater mindshare.
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

Because you can't control the variable of playing doesn't mean you shouldn't apply other controls when and where you can.

This is the second false dichotomy you've offered and you've made it clear you aren't interested in opening your mind on the matter, so my part in our discussion will end now. You're welcome to have the last word. Hopefully it won't include further talk about controlled studies relating the human auditory system and neuroscience: areas that are clearly beyond your realm of expertise.
 
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Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

gregory said:
Because you can't control the variable of playing doesn't mean you shouldn't apply other controls when and where you can.

This is the second false dichotomy you've offered and you've made it clear you aren't interested in opening your mind on the matter, so my part in our discussion will end now. You're welcome to have the last word. Hopefully it won't include further talk about controlled studies relating the human auditory system and neuroscience: areas that are clearly beyond your realm of expertise.
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Well, judging for the overreaction, what it actually tells is that you're projecting your own need of having the last word or/and winning an argument on the Web. But hey! Don't mind me, just passing by...

/Peter
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

Aaaaaanyhow, to get back on topic, in my experience, yes, it's possible that even when fully opened, the circuit will affect the tone. Which can be used to your advantage (depending on the pickups and caps, admittedly). Methinks it might be due to imperfections in the pot. But I'm no expert.
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

The most probable explanation to this phenomenon imho is that the pickup height was altered. Adjust the pickup higher on the bass side and its all good again.
 
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Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

hamerfan said:
The most probable explanation to the phenomem is imho the pickups height changed. Put the pickup higher on the bass side and its all good again.
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Why would you remove or change pickup height to install a treble bleed?
 
Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

Coma said:
Why would you remove or change pickup height to install a treble bleed?
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I do that all the even within a gig when i think it is needed.

But another thing is that i stopped changing to 2 things at the same time e.g. pickups and wiring harness or pickup height and installing a treble bleed. You can't tell what changed the sound, one thing or both.
 
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Re: Can Treble Bleeds Suck Bass/Fullness on 10?

hamerfan said:
I do that all the even within a gig when i think it is needed. But another thing is that i stopped changing to 2 things at the same time e.g. pickups and wiring harness. You can't what changed the sound, harness or pickups or both.
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Wut? Methinks you need to check your spelling, bud. Or just lay off the bud... Either way, you don't have to open up any wiring harness on a LP.
 
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