Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

BloodRose

Professional Scapegoat
I know this is going to be a bit subjective, but...

For years, on all of my rewires, I have used Orange drop caps. And I have read about Luxe and other oil filled caps.
So...... First, Ill say Im alittle miffed at how oil filled ones can even work...
But, to the point.. (again, I know this will be subjective) What type of caps deliver a better tone?
And what makes you say that?

Thank you!
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

I know this is going to be a bit subjective, but...

For years, on all of my rewires, I have used Orange drop caps. And I have read about Luxe and other oil filled caps.
So...... First, Ill say Im alittle miffed at how oil filled ones can even work...
But, to the point.. (again, I know this will be subjective) What type of caps deliver a better tone?
And what makes you say that?

Thank you!
Bloodrose, there's no "better" tone, as you can't quantify or even define "better". They all do what they're supposed to do.

I've use Mallory mustards, Mojotone Vitamin T, 225P and 725P Orange drops, Russian PIOs and even generic ceramics.

As long as they're within a +-5% from their nominal spec, they all work well for the intended task. I generally use the cheapest I can get at the time I bulk-buy'em, although for my own instruments I prefer either the Orange Drops or Vitamin Ts because I find'em they're easier to work with and solder.

YMMV.
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

I read that Gibson got "busted" (no legal action, just outed online) selling FAKE not-actually-PIO caps that were actually modern penny-value mylar capacitors stuffed in a piece of plastic or something printed with the old bumblebee design.... @ 2 for $129.99

Yup yup not a misprint, Gibson-branded official product, the $65 fake vintage capacitor
 
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Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

I have tested this out a lot and have noticed a difference. I don’t know if it is just a minor difference in cap values or what but I have tested maybe 10 pio and more than that of orange caps, multiple times back to back (not all at once, more like 3 pio 3 orange, and sometimes other caps like the ibanez yellow guys).

I like the orange caps best. They just sound the most open and clear to me. The difference is subtle but I can hear it when A/Bing. In a mix it probably doesn’t matter
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

Whatever delivers the correct value. All sound the same. PIO go out of spec over time, so they’ll sound great at first then dark/muddy over a long time (could take 10-20-30 years to go out of spec). Orange drops are within tight tolerances and completely stable over their lifetime.

Little cheap ceramic discs have some flaw where they do not discharge consistently (according to my measurements) and that results in something muddy happening to the sound. Based on my tests, I think they basically leak charge inconsistently instead of filling up and discharging at a consistent threshold. Anything but cheap ceramics, that have the correct value, will sound the same and be great.
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

I read that Gibson got "busted" (no legal action, just outed online) selling FAKE not-actually-PIO caps that were actually modern penny-value mylar capacitors stuffed in a piece of plastic or something printed with the old bumblebee design.... @ 2 for $129.99

Yup yup not a misprint, Gibson-branded official product, the $65 fake vintage capacitor

I know this particular product you’re talking about is out there on the market. Iirc, there are some YT vids where people show that it’s a fake. (Or maybe I read it somewhere)

I’ve never heard the Gibson aspect of it but yeah, there are bogus bumblebees for ridiculous prices out there.
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

Whatever delivers the correct value. All sound the same. PIO go out of spec over time, so they’ll sound great at first then dark/muddy over a long time (could take 10-20-30 years to go out of spec). Orange drops are within tight tolerances and completely stable over their lifetime.

Little cheap ceramic discs have some flaw where they do not discharge consistently (according to my measurements) and that results in something muddy happening to the sound. Based on my tests, I think they basically leak charge inconsistently instead of filling up and discharging at a consistent threshold. Anything but cheap ceramics, that have the correct value, will sound the same and be great.

Then again...couldn't THAT very going-out-of-spec be the very draw, that thing that people actually hear & like about them??


Sounds wacky, but....I mean I'm sure Seth, Leo, and co. would've been quite disinclined to believe in the 60's that, half a century later, people would pay a premium to have their pickup magnets partially degaussed, all to chase the tone of the originals (as they knew them). And yet, lo and behold, it is now 2018 and here we are

I know this particular product you’re talking about is out there on the market. Iirc, there are some YT vids where people show that it’s a fake. (Or maybe I read it somewhere)

I’ve never heard the Gibson aspect of it but yeah, there are bogus bumblebees for ridiculous prices out there.

Gibson indeed.

Out of stock, $125, preorder 2 weeks in advance, rating : **/5

https://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/gibson-historic-bumblebee-capacitors-2-pack
 
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Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

Then again...couldn't THAT very going-out-of-spec be the very draw, that thing that people actually hear & like about them??


Sounds wacky, but....I mean I'm sure Seth, Leo, and co. would've been quite disinclined to believe in the 60's that, half a century later, people would pay a premium to have their pickup magnets partially degaussed, all to chase the tone of the originals (as they knew them). And yet, lo and behold, it is now 2018 and here we are

If out of spec PIO really had the mojo (and maybe they do), I would just buy Orange drops at that lower value and have that mojo consistent for the life of the guitar.
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

If out of spec PIO really had the mojo (and maybe they do), I would just buy Orange drops at that lower value and have that mojo consistent for the life of the guitar.

That's the electrotonal equivalent of artificial patina, fake-carbonated bubbly, and booze with "aged oak flavour....added"
 
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Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

That's the electrotonal equivalent of artificial patina, fake-carbonated bubbly, and booze with "aged oak flavour....added"

Not really. The "tone" of a capacitor is due to the actual value of the cap, not what's written on the side. If a certain value of cap gives the tone you want, buy that.

beaubrummels got it right. PIO caps are prone to drift and leakage which is why they're no longer used for the most part. In addition to being inconsistent in the way mentioned, ceramic disc caps can also vary as a function of temperature. For those reasons I'll use anything except ceramic or PIO at the value I need. I frequently use orange drops because they're easy to find, dependable, and relatively cheap.
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

I still have some Russian PIO caps that I use more for nostalgic reasons than any. However, any other time I use Sprague Orange Drops.

I gave up debating tone caps and stainless frets long ago.
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

Gibson are a slick group of ba*tards. They don't claim those caps are PIO's like the original "Bumble Bees". They claim that they look the same and sound the same. They're probably paying a buck a piece for them and that may be generous.

I'm thinking of a particular phrase that was attributed to P.T. Barnum ...
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

I have to admit, given the same value, I can't hear a difference at all. So I use whatever I have around. :dunno:
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

I have to admit, given the same value, I can't hear a difference at all. So I use whatever I have around. :dunno:
I can't either, but I avoid ceramics because of their inconsistency.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

There is no point in asking this question. The replies will be almost nothing but opinion, and it will just lead to a bunch of argument and no resolution.

If you want to form an opinion on this matter that is actually worth its salt, then you need to do a simple experiment. Get a variety of caps of different types, in large batches for each cap type. Measure them all, and gets ones that are right on spec, or as close as possible within a batch of a reasonable size. Rig them all to a rotary switch. You can get these with 12 positions or 6 positions at almost any guitar electronics retailer. Install a different type, but identical value, cap on each switch lug. Make recordings of basic guitar parts, taking care to try and use the same picking force for each recording, and the same exact recording parameters. Do a lot of takes on each type of cap, say ten. Export the audio files (ten per cap type – maybe as many as 120 files, if you used every position on a 12-way switch), mix them up (i.e. play them in random order), and have others listen blindly and make notes. Remember that *blindly* is key here. They cannot see that one track is P.I.O. while another is an Orange Drop, or the like, as they are listening.

This does not eliminate all variables, nor does it provide objective analysis...but it should give you a damned good clue about what cap type does and doesn't do for tone. Ideally, you rig a robotic device that plucks the strings exactly the same, and plays the same exact parts with exactly the same timing. And ideally you devise a way to objectively analyze the tone (i.e. something other than a human being does it). But that's all beyond the scope of what the layman can do at home, and the tests described above can still tell you a lot, especially if you do lots of multiple takes on each type of cap, and include all takes in the files meant for listening and analysis.
 
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Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

This is generally one of those 'don't touch with a 10ft pole' type subjects.

Of all the testing (via oscilloscope) I have seen with cap material and tonal outcome, the differences are so slight as to be most likely masked by any typical more modern tone guitar or amp. And especially if you play in a loud band with the typical crappy room acoustics.
The only time I think you could legitimately care about such a difference (or hear it) is playing by yourself on a quality vintage amp and guitar right on the edge of breakup.....that and someone building a vintage burst lookalike and wanting to dot every i and cross every t in the process.
Most people here don't have this sort of guitar to need a precise look - nor a tone or rig that might make the difference potentially noticeable. In which case the value of the cap becomes more important.

Vintage sprague caps also were not all PIO type. There are plenty that are mylar.....the very type in the middle of the Gibson 'pretend' bumblebee. So in effect the Gibson bees were giving you exactly what a lot of vintage caps were anyhow - its just the typical Gibson overcharging that gets most people's goat - I've probably bought 20 vintage spragues - and not even with the combined price paid got to the asking price for 1 of the Gibson ones.
 
Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

Anatomically, so are azzes... yet, for some unfathomable reason, some overly emotional people get very vocally upset if they pay good money for genuine premium female azz, and it turns out to be male once the fake girly clothes come off

...but is it really fraud? Or are they being unreasonable? Please discuss. :beerchug:
 
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Re: Caps.. Orange drops vs oil?

Thank you for the input all! Yeah, I knew when asking that it was going to be a subjective can of worms.. However, I believe I got what I needed in the fact that the common denom seems to be that there is little to no difference. So, I will stick with orange drops as they deliver the goods, are inexpensive and easy to get and reliable.
 
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