Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

[Zombiwoof]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

There was a thread on another forum that said the early version of the 75 with the all white label is actually a pretty good sounding speaker, and better than the later versions. They made changes to the 75's a few times over the years, and the poster of that thread said the later versions are responsible for the bad rep the 75's get.
In comparison clips I've listened to, the 65's always sound much darker than the other Celestions, I guess in some applications that would be a good thing. I've never had the occasion to try them myself.
Al

 

[jeremy]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

If the speaker wire is heavy enough to carry the current, which I'm sure it is, I don't think heavier wire is going to change the tone.

i completely agree. unless you are using tiny wire, it shouldnt make a difference.

i have a 65 and i dont find it to be a dark speaker at all

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

Longer wire would have more capacitance and be darker
By the same token
Larger wire of the same length may be brighter

What could it hurt
Get some 14 gauge speaker wire at Walmart and see
You can always get new speakers if it doesn't work

 

[dave74]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

Couldn't you just install a cap and 250k pot?







j/k

 

[devastone]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

You are thinking about instrument cables where there is a core and shield, speaker cables are 2 conductors side by side, the capacitance is negligible.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

You are thinking about instrument cables where there is a core and shield, speaker cables are 2 conductors side by side, the capacitance is negligible.

Ok you are right

But if he wants to try it
It ain't expensive
And wont hurt

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

Larger wire of the same length may be brighter

Based on your description above, i don't believe it is a change that accomplishes my particular goal. As i do not want to add brightness; I want the lows to tighten up.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[dystrust]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but Dystrust's idea below could potentially save me the expense having to replace 4 T-75 speakers in my Marshall cabinet cuz of their boomy low end.

Dystrust, what gauge of speaker wire were you recommending here in this reply?

That was a long time ago and I really should've phrased it differently. I was referring to 16ga wire as I've seen a few cabs that used something smaller though it's been years and I can no longer remember what gauge it was. The biggest difference was that the bass seemed fuller and tighter with the 16ga wire.

Reading your other post, I don't think rewiring your cab and keeping the T75s is going to work for you. Those speakers are pretty scooped, so you need to run a healthy does of mids on the amp to offset that.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

I love the G12-65. For my taste it's pretty much the perfect Celestion - the sound I hear in my head when I think of Marshall cabs.

When I traded away my old (1980) 4x12 with G12-65s I missed that sound immediately. At first I thought it was just because I'd gigged the cab for a decade and a half and was super familiar with the tone.

But it didn't take long to realize that I liked the 65s much better than the 75s I had in the newer cab. Or the Vintage30 I have in my 1x12, for that matter.

 

[Zombiwoof]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

i completely agree. unless you are using tiny wire, it shouldnt make a difference.

i have a 65 and i dont find it to be a dark speaker at all

An amp tech I talked to said that when wiring a speaker cab or combo amp, the wire should be at least 16 ga.
Long speaker cable runs should be larger gauge from what I understand.
When I listened to speaker clips of Celestions, I think from their site, the 65 sounded darker in comparison to the other popular Celestions. It was noticeable in the comparison, but you may not notice it when not comparing to others. The high end was more subdued IMO. As I said, that may be just what you want for some amps.
Al

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

There was a thread on another forum that said the early version of the 75 with the all white label is actually a pretty good sounding speaker, and better than the later versions. They made changes to the 75's a few times over the years, and the poster of that thread said the later versions are responsible for the bad rep the 75's get.
.....
Al

I have some dated 1987. They completely deserve the bad rep that T75s generally get in my opinion. But yes, they are several slightly different sub versions of the 75. The very first one identified by a "vent" in the center of the magnet are supposedly closer to the 65 tone. Based on my experience most 75s from the 80's are probably not anything special, though. I think a well broke in V30 sounds 10 times better.

There are several different sub types of the original G12-65 too. It took Celestion several tries to eventually get the Heritage reissue version to meet the approval of Robin Ford. Ford has also used the Eminence (Tone Spotter) as an alternative to a reissue 65 some.

There are different sub types of the V30 too. Marshall has a proprietary version and Mesa has a different proprietary version as well. Standard V30s from the 90s sound slightly different from the current versions. And any well broke in and aged version of the V30 sounds better than any version brand new one.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

i completely agree. unless you are using tiny wire, it shouldnt make a difference.

It shouldn't make a "big difference" is I think more what you mean -which is often true

-but it actually can make difference enough in the discussion of guitar tone. the following is a simplified version for those interested.

The actual guitar sound/tone or "Energy and characteristic" of the signal/tone are NOT carried inside the actual copper of the unshielded speaker cable but rather in the electromagnetic field radiating around the copper conductor. The size, ratings, and surface area of this copper affects the available path and push of electrons through the copper itself, which creates and affects the shape and characteristics of the surrounding magnetic field (visualized by lines of flux) around the conductor. This causes the attenuation of higher frequencies and the tonal characteristics as a result of, to be affected by the characteristics of the gauge, style, ratings and length of the speaker cable. Even the CPVC or Plenum or Smoke rated jacket material is in the equation for frequency attenuation.

But nobody get to worried -most people can't hear anything different anyways -and these compounding affects are hard to hear in short distances.

I mean, most people like NUcountry, NUmetal and NUMumble-post-modern-whiny-Rap. -so most people are deaf and stupid any ways.

 

[devastone]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

Can you quote your source on that?

The "skin effect" means that higher frequencies tend to travel closer to the wall of the conductor, but still inside the conductor, that is the point of the conductor, to carry the electrons. Guitar frequencies (and pretty much all audio frequencies) are actually pretty low, so the effect of the "skin effect" in guitar cab wiring is negligible. However, this effect is more pronounced in larger diameter wire than smaller diameter.

For guitar cab wiring, the skin effect is so close to zero that it will have no discernable effect.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

Can you quote your source on that?

The "skin effect" means that higher frequencies tend to travel closer to the wall of the conductor, but still inside the conductor, that is the point of the conductor, to carry the electrons. Guitar frequencies (and pretty much all audio frequencies) are actually pretty low, so the effect of the "skin effect" in guitar cab wiring is negligible. However, this effect is more pronounced in larger diameter wire than smaller diameter.

For guitar cab wiring, the skin effect is so close to zero that it will have no discernable effect.

Sure -Are you asking for a source on how the electrical waveform (the energy) travels emanating from the electrical medium (AKA the copper) -BTW this principle is why COAX cable for higher frequencies was developed -to mitigate the high frequency attenuation issues

Or on the Skin effect -where electrons tend to exchange orbits on the outside "skin" of the conductors in an AC circuit

Or how this affects Guitar tone?

 

[devastone]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

I was asking for the source you quoted in the post.

The energy is still inside the conductor, (trying to figure out how to say this) as the AC frequency of the current gets higher it uses less of the conductor, basically a band from the outside wall toward the center that gets thinner.

But, this only really comes in to play at high frequencies like RF, at audio frequencies, especially short lengths like guitar cabinet wiring, it is totally negligible. Also, for stranded wire, the skin effect happens on each conductor, which is advantageous, the larger the diameter of the conductor, the greater the effect.

I have a degree in electronics, but I'm not an RF guy or physicist so I could be wrong, but there seems to be info to back me up.

Also, audiophile websites don't count as references, they are usually contain more snake oil than fact. There are websites that will sell you an IEC power cord for hundreds of $ that is guaranteed to make your amp sound better, it won't, it doesn't matter if the power cord is 4AWG if the wiring in the wall is 14AWG.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/skineffect.html

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-3/more-on-the-skin-effect/

https://circuitglobe.com/skin-effect.html

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

I was asking for the source you quoted in the post.

The energy is still inside the conductor, (trying to figure out how to say this) as the AC frequency of the current gets higher it uses less of the conductor, basically a band from the outside wall toward the center that gets thinner.

But, this only really comes in to play at high frequencies like RF, at audio frequencies, especially short lengths like guitar cabinet wiring, it is totally negligible. Also, for stranded wire, the skin effect happens on each conductor, which is advantageous, the larger the diameter of the conductor, the greater the effect.

I have a degree in electronics, but I'm not an RF guy or physicist so I could be wrong, but there seems to be info to back me up.

Also, audiophile websites don't count as references, they are usually contain more snake oil than fact. There are websites that will sell you an IEC power cord for hundreds of $ that is guaranteed to make your amp sound better, it won't, it doesn't matter if the power cord is 4AWG if the wiring in the wall is 14AWG.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/skineffect.html

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-3/more-on-the-skin-effect/

https://circuitglobe.com/skin-effect.html

Oh, I typed that -thats not a quote -the waveform energy rides external in the field in relation to to the position of the exact orbit exchange path through the electrical medium in an AC circuit. -Maybe I'm being terrible at explaining it -sounds like you get it. -So the skin effect places much of the energy external to the actual copper conductor, making installation technique and selection much more important in speaker cables than if we used coaxial cable with a dialectric zone with reference to a shield.

I worked many years for esoteric audio reference manufacturer and did RF design and was just mumbling off the top of my head. -

I thought that the post I was referencing was not "Wrong" -most people will not notice ANY difference in marginal cable selections and lengths -BUT there is a technical difference that can certainly be detected, and recorded on a scope, and heard by some.

I think it was Mix magazine or one of the trade magazines back 2 decades that swapped a very expensive Mogami oxygen free cables with number 18 lamp cord for a mix session and nobody knew the difference... lol

The only reason I mention anything is that to acknowledge the factors helps put into practice the best technic for wiring a speaker cabinet -cost factors considered.

 

[devastone]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

Yes, and it happens because the back EMF travels down the center, but that is pretty much the extent of my current knowledge on the subject.

It sounds like you know way more about it than I do, like I said, RF is not my thing. But, I am going to say we have derailed this enough, for the 5' - 6' of wire in a guitar cab, especially at guitar frequencies, this is all pretty much irrelevant.

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

Yes, and it happens because the back EMF travels down the center, but that is pretty much the extent of my current knowledge on the subject.

It sounds like you know way more about it than I do, like I said, RF is not my thing. But, I am going to say we have derailed this enough, for the 5' - 6' of wire in a guitar cab, especially at guitar frequencies, this is all pretty much irrelevant.

Ha. true -pretty irrelevant. Nerd Alert! plus honestly -nothing says that doing anything scientifically and technically as efficient or as expert as possible makes for better tone in the end. -those endeavors are more likely to benefit the life of your tubes and transformer and not the tone.

So much of it is the individual's physical structure of the outer, middle and inner ear and the waveguide responses, blood flow to each area, cochlear nerve size, brain structure and power etc etc. -before we even begin to discuss how nurture and memory recall affects this opinion.

Tone is so personal..... except NUrap/metal -all ears should know intrinsically that it sucks.

 

[Adieu]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

If the speaker wire is heavy enough to carry the current, which I'm sure it is, I don't think heavier wire is going to change the tone.

Duuuude... you just haven't inhaled the goodness of oxygen-free pure copper $10,000 audiophile wire

PS although 10 or 12 gauge copper for ~$0.50- $1 / ft retail, or even some 12/2 copper wire will be indistinguishable, albeit sans valuable phallic symbol bragging rights

 

[SoPhx]

Re: Celestion G12-65 vs. G12T-75

G12-65s. One of the best sounding speakers in Fender Twins, Pro Reverbs, etc. Gets rid of the cowboy twang and beefs up the tone.