CF Martin name stolen in China

Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

http://www.musicincmag.com/News/2010/101214/101214_martin.html

I don't know why mine works and his doesn't but here.

This isn't news. China has been making fakes and copies using real trademark names and even putting real-looking "Made in USA" stickers and fake warrantee cards in the cases, for years. Gibson, Fender, PRS, Martin. How do you sue China? You can't. It's a country run like an organized crime syndicate.
 
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Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

This isn't news.

Well, this IS news.

From the article:

"But according to Ron Bienstock, a leading music industry attorney and partner with Bienstock & Michael, the Martin double was within its legal rights — at least in China"

Some other company legally (in China, which does have laws and a government) applied for the Martin trademark and now owns it...in China:

"In this case, another company acquired the Martin trademark in China by filing for it before the Nazareth, Pa.-based guitar maker."

These are not true counterfeits or fakes, but legit (in China), legally (in China) trademarked instruments.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the coming months/years.

Hey maybe in a year or two all the epiphone players can buy "legit" "Gibson" Les Pauls for $300 off the internet! Sweet!:disappoin
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

"In China" meaning "allowed by a criminal cartel who represses its people and tortures dissidents". So to me, it's still a ripoff and a crime. But what are we going to do about it?

Buy a real Martin I guess.
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

First come first serve basis??? For fawks sake we're dealing with HUGE companies here. I hate people. :banghead:
 
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Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

This isn't as hot as it sounds. While the other company registered the trademark "CF Martin" in China first, which is legal since the original company slept on it and didn't apply for a trademark, these cannot legally be re-imported to the US. Because here their trademark isn't valid and the logo violate a US tardemark holder's rights.
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

Sounds like Martin kinda dropped the ball on this one and lost the legal rights to their name in China . . . pretty much guarantees that they will not be able to sell in that country any more. They should still be protected in North America and Europe though. It's a pretty shady move on the part of the Chinese company, but hey . . . if you're following the letter of the law . . .
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

They might be able to complain about the theft of their logo and the blatant lie of being established in 1883. Whether the chinese government will do anything about it is another matter. They have pretty much ignored international copyright laws for as long as they've been around.
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

Copyright /= trademarks /= patents.

A first-come firs-serve system for names of any kind isn't uncommon at all. Just look at .com domain names.
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

Copyright /= trademarks /= patents.

A first-come firs-serve system for names of any kind isn't uncommon at all. Just look at .com domain names.

Would the martin logo be a trademark issue then?
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

The other part of the problem is the growing trend for companies to get their products MADE in China !!

They want them built cheap so they can make as much profit from us as possible, but then complain when their prodicts get copied....

NEWS FLASH... if you don't want someone to copy your product, WHY EQUIP THEM WITH THE TOOLS AND KNOWHOW TO DO IT ??

In a country where poverty is the norm, you can expect anyone who would otherwise be honest and decent to exploit any possible way of making money.

The greed of the west is partly to blame for this situation.
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

This isn't as hot as it sounds. While the other company registered the trademark "CF Martin" in China first, which is legal since the original company slept on it and didn't apply for a trademark, these cannot legally be re-imported to the US. Because here their trademark isn't valid and the logo violate a US tardemark holder's rights.

ooooOOOOOoo Okay. Thanks for clearing that up. My mind went into apocalypse mode and I was seeing these guitars infiltrating locally :D
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

Would the martin logo be a trademark issue then?

Yes.

In general the trademark issue is messier than copyright and patents because the latter two kinda sometimes somewhat transport to other countries mostly automatically, but trademarks are first-come first-serve by country.

People also need to stop thinking of "the Chinese". The central Chinese government has very little control over what some wacky sweat shop does when printing logos onto guitars. Likewise copyright. It's not that they simply allow pirating software and music by state law. I don't want to imply the government is doing enough against it but many people in the West have this image of a Stalinist Moloch where every sack of rice falling over has a written permit by the government.

It's a simple matter of priorities over there, just as it is here. For the US government intellectual property has relatively higher value than other law enforcement since this country has more or less given up on making things that are not intellectual property. And crime around physical good is pretty rare here (not counting drugs). So we play lots of lawyer games around copyright, patents and trademarks. The Chinese government even when it comes to non-corrupt appropriate action to enforce laws just has bigger problems that trademark and copyright, starting with theft of physical property.

And I have to remind you that many of us here in the US think that our patent system is insane. I don't see smart people elsewhere rush to defend it on their soil. In any case the major reason why you can't enforce a patent in China, even if it is valid there, is that the courts over there only roll their eyes back into their head if you come in with some crazy patent like Apple's new "patent on negative reviews". As do many US judges, but at least here you can force them to flip a coin and you get a 50:50 chance to win. You have no leverage to enforce ridiculous patents in China.

Or try to enforce DiMarzio's brilliant double-cream humbucker trademark in China. Good luck :)

I guess the summary is that some of our intellectual property laws are obviously insane to an outside observer, and that makes enforcing any of them (even the sane ones) much harder.

Why is this message so long?
 
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Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

Does this affect my $200 D-28 that I bought here in Shanghai and play and sounds so nice?

Yes, I do believe its a copy, a real great copy!
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

This isn't as hot as it sounds. While the other company registered the trademark "CF Martin" in China first, which is legal since the original company slept on it and didn't apply for a trademark, these cannot legally be re-imported to the US. Because here their trademark isn't valid and the logo violate a US tardemark holder's rights.

The fact that they can't be imported legally doesn't mean they won't be. Online sales of musical instruments is no small business and the internet is still essentially lawless when it comes to petty crimes. Once these get online they'll be legal counterfeits that you can't identify without playing. From the story it doesn't sound like these are the Martin equivalent of Gisbons. They could hurt the business of small authorized online Martin retailers.
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

The fact that they can't be imported legally doesn't mean they won't be.

If they have criminal intent (import to the US with a trademark owned by somebody else there) then they can just slam the logo on whether they have the trademark in China or not. They could have done (and probably did) that all along. That's why it doesn't make that much of a difference that the trademark is now misassigned.
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

Well, this IS news.


Hey maybe in a year or two all the epiphone players can buy "legit" "Gibson" Les Pauls for $300 off the internet! Sweet!:disappoin

Oh you mean like this or were you thinking more like this? Or how about this?

I've actually seen one that was ordered from that site, and aside from it being a semi-hollow with f-holes it was dead-on to a real Gibson Les Paul. Pickups weren't Duncan quality but they sounded pretty good.

People who can afford the real deal or don't care that they can't and have credit will buy a Gibson, the rest will settle for something they can save for in a short period of time.
 
Re: CF Martin name stolen in China

Oh you mean like this or were you thinking more like this? Or how about this?

I've actually seen one that was ordered from that site, and aside from it being a semi-hollow with f-holes it was dead-on to a real Gibson Les Paul. Pickups weren't Duncan quality but they sounded pretty good.

People who can afford the real deal or don't care that they can't and have credit will buy a Gibson, the rest will settle for something they can save for in a short period of time.

Gibson owns the two Epiphone factories in Qingdao China and has a major showroom in Shanghai...
 
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