Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

[Chocklit_Thunda]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

Are saying PIO caps sound like orange drops which sound like other ceramic caps?

I respectfully disagree.

Yup. Capacitors have no direct effect on changing tone. If you were to find examples of all three which had the exact same capacitance and you swapped 'em in you would hear no difference. The only difference may be the actual taper as you wind down the pot but once you reach the bottom they'd sound very much the same as well.

The only major difference is that higher end caps have very tight tolerances between caps while ceramic disks vary hugely from cap to cap.

Try it. Wire in some alligator clips and get like 5 or 10 dolla worth of caps varying in price and material but very similar capacitance and then just switch em in. The only thing that makes a difference is the actual value of the capacitor.

 

[ToddStaples]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

Yup. Capacitors have no direct effect on changing tone. If you were to find examples of all three which had the exact same capacitance and you swapped 'em in you would hear no difference. The only difference may be the actual taper as you wind down the pot but once you reach the bottom they'd sound very much the same as well.

The only major difference is that higher end caps have very tight tolerances between caps while ceramic disks vary hugely from cap to cap.

Try it. Wire in some alligator clips and get like 5 or 10 dolla worth of caps varying in price and material but very similar capacitance and then just switch em in. The only thing that makes a difference is the actual value of the capacitor.

Better or worse is for you to decide but a good PIO cap certainly sounds differently than a a .05 cent ceramic cap.Because you can't hear it doesn't meant it doesn't Exist.

 

[Chocklit_Thunda]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

It really doesn't. There have been numerous tests done. Just a simple google search will tell you as much... I'm not saying your ears are bad or anything like that, but types of capacitors don't make a difference. Values do.

Honestly it's all just marketing nonsense.... That whole "It costs more so it must be better" Mumbo jumbo...
Same way people believe that the JRC 4558D chips in the tubescreamers are in some way superior to any other 4558 chip (it's not)
Or that nitrocellulose lacquer is better because it "breathes" (it doesn't)

It's similar to a placebo effect.... You want to hear it so you do.

 

[Mr. B]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

I'm not saying you're wrong, because you are probably right, but a video of someone switching out caps on youtube is not exactly scientific evidence either. The sonic changes would have to be analyzed with electronic equipment. If the expensive caps have a tighter tolerance, and tighter tolerance means a more standard audio taper, wouldn't that mean it WOULD be more likely to sound better?

 

[JeffB]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

Coincidentally, Gibson just posted an article about this very thing on their webpage. Using all their spectrodoohickeys they claim that current research shows that not only does the cap affect the rolloff of highs, but it also has a slight mid band boost effect, which is why tolerance and type of cap is important.

:shrug:

 

[ToddStaples]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

It really doesn't. There have been numerous tests done. Just a simple google search will tell you as much... I'm not saying your ears are bad or anything like that, but types of capacitors don't make a difference. Values do.

Honestly it's all just marketing nonsense.... That whole "It costs more so it must be better" Mumbo jumbo...
Same way people believe that the JRC 4558D chips in the tubescreamers are in some way superior to any other 4558 chip (it's not)
Or that nitrocellulose lacquer is better because it "breathes" (it doesn't)

It's similar to a placebo effect.... You want to hear it so you do.

Lol. Okay. ..

 

[AlexR]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

It's similar to a placebo effect.... You want to hear it so you do.

So shall we now say - you think caps tonal changes are mumbo jumbo, so you convince yourself not to hear any difference

 

[ToddStaples]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

So shall we now say - you think caps tonal changes are mumbo jumbo, so you convince yourself not to hear any difference

You admit you are a cheapskate earlier in the thread. I think you just have a problem with 15 dollars Pio cap. That's OK. Nothing wrong with that.
I'll say this. To my ears, the difference in the tone between differentcaps is less with higher output pickups. With a Black Winter, the perks of a luxe bumblebee will probably be missed. It's more readily apparent with lower output pickups.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

I think you quoted the wrong person here perhaps - I'm agreeing with you

 

[ToddStaples]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

Sorry about that. I'm on my phone and did quote the wrong person. Lol

 

[Chocklit_Thunda]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

Not really. If you read the article on Gibson's website, they even state that the big difference in types of cap is that the tolerances change between caps. As I've stated all along, I'm talking about caps with the same value which in turn will give you the same mid hump regardless of the material. That's why I do dislike the idea of PIO caps that cost more than a loaf of bread... They're overpriced and marketed as superior when they really aren't.
I personally use those bulk green poly film caps (just measure for the correct value and discard the few that aren't close) or sprague orange drops if I can get them. The tolerances are tight enough that the caps all have close enough values and they cost a fraction of what a single PIO costs and do the exact job.

You hear a difference because the value of the cap has changed. Cheap stock caps that say .047 or .022 are usually not even close to their intended value while the higher end cap is and hence the change in the overall tone.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

Myaccount, the RS Guitarworks kit to which I refer contains the pots. I'm on my iPhone at the moment so I can't include a link. I'll do that later:

You can get everything you need for ~$25, which is what I was talking about. $110+tax+shipping for a wiring harness is quite frankly, retarded. Just do it yourself and save a ton of money.

 

[David Collins]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

The only major difference is that higher end caps have very tight tolerances between caps while ceramic disks vary hugely from cap to cap.

Yup. I've done a lot of tests - a whole lot of tests - and I will say it has always been a challenge to find ceramics that will test consistent enough to use in equal-value comparisons, much less hold close to that value if the temperature changes a few degrees. Of course many paper in oil caps aren't much better, though they often shift opposite direction in value with temperature change. This is why I think orange drops are great - cheap, very good tolerances, and good stability under environmental changes.

Here's the most recent demonstration I've done, which is just a tiny sample if the many, many tests and surveys I've done over the years.

 

[David Collins]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

And here's the results, which are essentially the same as they've always been in a true blind test with any combination of amp / settings / guitar / pickups / values, etc.

Simply put, the way our brains process data makes it humanly impossible to separate what we 'know' about what we're listening to from the processing that occurs in our brains after the data is received. Furthermore, if the player knows what they're playing, it is impossible to ensure no influence has been affected in their attack or playing style.

In all the testing I've done, where these aspects are controlled by blind or double-blind testing methods, I've yet to find a single person (even those who were certain of a difference to begin with) who could reliably identify one cap type as different from others.

 

[ToddStaples]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

.

I had a really hard time watching these videos. You go on saying you have no vested interest yet in your first few sentences you call out "snake oil". Lol.

 

[David Collins]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

I'm not clear on how this could be taken to present a conflict Todd. I currently have no investment in inventory of boutique caps which I plan or need to sell. If I did find through objective and controlled research that my prior understanding of capacitor influence was incorrect, I would follow the evidence and inventory various caps to achieve different effects. I can go wherever the evidence points, and have no vested interest.

I do however have an interest in ensuring that any advice I offer clients is based on the best evidence currently available, whichever way it points. I don't want to advocate changes or expenses based on anecdotes of questionable reliability, as if the changes prove to be ineffective or rely heavily on placebo effect I would consider the products as snake oil. How do these circumstances present any conflict?

Perhaps you assume that I am stubborn and my "vested interest" is that I am set in my ways and more interested in proving my personal biases to be right than looking for honest truth. This my friend, could not be farther from the truth. When I started looking in to this several years back, I was quite neutral and would have gladly accepted results in either direction. Evidence however, clearly and consistently pointed the same way, that dielectric differences at consistent tested value offer no noticeable results in a passive guitar tone circuit. Still, every time I have repeated these tests I have done all I could to shield the results from any biases I may hold based on prior results, and every time I have worked harder to tweak testing to strive for a more ideal environment in which changes could be heard if there were any - if I'm wrong, and evidence can show dielectric effects to be real, I want to be the first to know so that I can adjust my advice to match the evidence.

If you are certain that dielectric changes do affect a difference, then I would only ask that you contribute some reliable evidence to demonstrate such. The moment I see reliable evidence which contradicts my results, my first impulse would be to revisit my tests to see if or where I made any mistakes, and hopefully replicate the tests to verify the results. Please don't jump to assume any bias on my part for or against specialized caps though, as I have none whatsoever. My only bias is to favor verifiable direct effects over placebo or snake oil. Which category high end caps end up falling in to is of no concern to me at all -my only concern is that I place them in the right one, whichever that is.

 

[Chocklit_Thunda]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

Yup. I've done a lot of tests - a whole lot of tests - and I will say it has always been a challenge to find ceramics that will test consistent enough to use in equal-value comparisons, much less hold close to that value if the temperature changes a few degrees. Of course many paper in oil caps aren't much better, though they often shift opposite direction in value with temperature change. This is why I think orange drops are great - cheap, very good tolerances, and good stability under environmental changes.

Here's the most recent demonstration I've done, which is just a tiny sample if the many, many tests and surveys I've done over the years.

Thanks for the video and for recording your findings. something I didn't do because mine was just a personal test, also for me to be able to give anyone whose guitar I work on the best advice regarding components they want changed. As stated before, the only problem I have is with items that are falsely advertised as superior in order to profit.

 

[speed2dirt]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

If the general consensus is to gut the guitar, whatever happens to all these unused circuit boards? I'd love to try one on my Les Paul (my 2012 Tribute just had the metal plate, no PCB), but you rarely seen them for sale on forums or eBay. Just curious what everyone does with them. I doubt the resale value is hurt by selling it hardwired like all the classic Les Pauls were, so why would anyone hang onto them? Just curious.

 

[BloodRose]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

yeah, if my "2008" model doesnt sell, Im looking at gutting the circuit board out of it and putting in standard pots/caps. Ive looked all over the net for extra connectors to put on new pups to plug them in, but cant find any. So, its either cut the leads and put the plugs on the new pups or just gut the board.. I figure easier that way. I just hope the neutric jack isnt wired any kinda special way...

I dunno why they used the board in the first place.. guess to limit people to buying Gibson pups. They sell other pickups with the connectors..

 

[PaulieSixx66]

Re: Changing pickups with Gibson circuit board

So I've been breezing through some of these responses, I am after a cut and dry answer if anyone has one. I am not wanting to gut the whole guitar, and I am also in a bit of a time crunch. I can solder, and all. What I need is to know what wire goes where if I were to clip myself a pig tail off the stock pick up, and wire the plug into my JB. I've read some say, match all the colors and roll, and then I've read people say not to do that, but they don't provide the answer as to what goes to what. Would anyone be willing to help? Simple diagram with colors, links, etc? I really need to try and figure this out before the end of the week. Thank you in advance!