Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
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Johtosotku
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
Most people like the extra harmonics and richness a tube amp delivers when it's near breakup, even if it doesn't go dirty. I prefer cleans from a good tube amp to that of a SS amp or a modeler, but everyone has a different taste.
Most people like the extra harmonics and richness a tube amp delivers when it's near breakup, even if it doesn't go dirty. I prefer cleans from a good tube amp to that of a SS amp or a modeler, but everyone has a different taste.
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
I play clean, really clean most of the time. My first good amp was a '66 BF Fender Band Master 212 rig, but that amp was stolen. After that, for some twenty years I made my living as a single act, and my amp of choice was a SS SUNN Solos II 212 combo--a Twin Reverb killer, and to my mind one of the best SS amps to ever hit the market. But I wound up having to use a DOD FX Preamp and an MXR 10-band EQ to get some of the bass "punch" that the SUNN didn't have. Turns out, the SUNN was voiced to cut more like a Marshall than to have the deep bass of a Fender.
Eventually, I found my way back to using a tube amp and playing with a band again. I went through a Fender Super Champ, BF Deluxe Reverb, BF Tremolux 210 rig, Fender 75 and a couple of Marshalls--before finally settling on Mesa. My first Mesa was a 200-watt Mark III head and 412 Half-back cab. Just glorious tone, and it fit my needs perfectly. I now have seven Mesa amps, different sizes and configurations to handle any gig, any venue.
Now, Mesas are know for their distorted tone in the LEAD channel, and have been since the first Boogie, now known as the Mark I--and I love the LEAD channels of my Mesa amps. I don't like dirt boxes; I haven't played one yet that had the natural sound of a overdriven tube amp. But the FAT mode of my Mark V's clean channel is as good, if not better than any amp I've ever played.
And to be honest, I think the most audible difference in tube vs. SS amp is in the responsiveness of the clean tone, and if the way the amp responds when it is just slightly pushed to the edge of distortion. You can hear in a good tube amp how the tube responds to the dynamic of the pick attack as it hits, compresses, distorts, releases and decays. The SS amp won't have these audible artifacts--it's kinda either ON or OFF. I've never heard a pedal that really sounds like a tube amp distorting. And the only distortion pedal I have on board is a vintage Real Tube 901 with a 12AU7 tube--it gets very close, but it STILL doesn't respond like an amp.
If you're just going to play distorted all the time, ala "Scandinavian Death Metal", then to me--you might as well use a SS amp--I don't think at those volumes and with that much square-wave distortion that you can really hear the subtleties of tube distortion. But I will admit to having old ears, lol!
And of course, over the years there have been several attempts at building HYBRID amps. Music Man and Peavey were two that used SS front ends with tube power and there were others the did it the opposite way. Jerry Garcia used Alembic tube preamps and massive SS power amps from McIntosh with the Grateful Dead.
I think a lot of depends on how the amp is going to be used. I don't think one needs to spend $2,000 on a boutique, 7-watt Class A amp to use in a teaching studio; though it might work great for recording. Probably wouldn't cut it at the local R&B club with a band that has a horn section, or in concert at the Coliseum.
As always, let your ears be your guide, Do YOU hear the difference between a tube amp and one that's SS? Play them side-by-side. Better yet play them with your band. The bandstand is the crucible for me. Some amps sound great in your bedroom, but can't cut it on stage. And some, at least for me, are the opposite. My Marshall JCM 800 sounded AWFUL at low volume in my living room, but when it got hot and pushed hard all night--man, those third and fourth sets--it would be rippin'!!! I like my Mesas because I get good tone at low volume, and I know when they are cranked up, I'm going to be getting a lot of compliments on my tone.
So yes, for me...a GOOD tube amp will have better cleans than all but the very best of the SS and modelling amps. In the end, it comes down to what YOU like.
Good luck!
Bill
I play clean, really clean most of the time. My first good amp was a '66 BF Fender Band Master 212 rig, but that amp was stolen. After that, for some twenty years I made my living as a single act, and my amp of choice was a SS SUNN Solos II 212 combo--a Twin Reverb killer, and to my mind one of the best SS amps to ever hit the market. But I wound up having to use a DOD FX Preamp and an MXR 10-band EQ to get some of the bass "punch" that the SUNN didn't have. Turns out, the SUNN was voiced to cut more like a Marshall than to have the deep bass of a Fender.
Eventually, I found my way back to using a tube amp and playing with a band again. I went through a Fender Super Champ, BF Deluxe Reverb, BF Tremolux 210 rig, Fender 75 and a couple of Marshalls--before finally settling on Mesa. My first Mesa was a 200-watt Mark III head and 412 Half-back cab. Just glorious tone, and it fit my needs perfectly. I now have seven Mesa amps, different sizes and configurations to handle any gig, any venue.
Now, Mesas are know for their distorted tone in the LEAD channel, and have been since the first Boogie, now known as the Mark I--and I love the LEAD channels of my Mesa amps. I don't like dirt boxes; I haven't played one yet that had the natural sound of a overdriven tube amp. But the FAT mode of my Mark V's clean channel is as good, if not better than any amp I've ever played.
And to be honest, I think the most audible difference in tube vs. SS amp is in the responsiveness of the clean tone, and if the way the amp responds when it is just slightly pushed to the edge of distortion. You can hear in a good tube amp how the tube responds to the dynamic of the pick attack as it hits, compresses, distorts, releases and decays. The SS amp won't have these audible artifacts--it's kinda either ON or OFF. I've never heard a pedal that really sounds like a tube amp distorting. And the only distortion pedal I have on board is a vintage Real Tube 901 with a 12AU7 tube--it gets very close, but it STILL doesn't respond like an amp.
If you're just going to play distorted all the time, ala "Scandinavian Death Metal", then to me--you might as well use a SS amp--I don't think at those volumes and with that much square-wave distortion that you can really hear the subtleties of tube distortion. But I will admit to having old ears, lol!
And of course, over the years there have been several attempts at building HYBRID amps. Music Man and Peavey were two that used SS front ends with tube power and there were others the did it the opposite way. Jerry Garcia used Alembic tube preamps and massive SS power amps from McIntosh with the Grateful Dead.
I think a lot of depends on how the amp is going to be used. I don't think one needs to spend $2,000 on a boutique, 7-watt Class A amp to use in a teaching studio; though it might work great for recording. Probably wouldn't cut it at the local R&B club with a band that has a horn section, or in concert at the Coliseum.
As always, let your ears be your guide, Do YOU hear the difference between a tube amp and one that's SS? Play them side-by-side. Better yet play them with your band. The bandstand is the crucible for me. Some amps sound great in your bedroom, but can't cut it on stage. And some, at least for me, are the opposite. My Marshall JCM 800 sounded AWFUL at low volume in my living room, but when it got hot and pushed hard all night--man, those third and fourth sets--it would be rippin'!!! I like my Mesas because I get good tone at low volume, and I know when they are cranked up, I'm going to be getting a lot of compliments on my tone.
So yes, for me...a GOOD tube amp will have better cleans than all but the very best of the SS and modelling amps. In the end, it comes down to what YOU like.
Good luck!
Bill
Snake Aces
Singlecut Slut
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
I think Boogie Bill said all that needs to be said. Nice work Bill!
I think Boogie Bill said all that needs to be said. Nice work Bill!
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
Thank you! I earned all my gray hairs, lol.
Bill
Thank you! I earned all my gray hairs, lol.
Bill
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
I play a lot of gigs with a dead clean tone. Having played and owned many different amps over the years, in my experience, the answer is an unequivocal yes.
I play a lot of gigs with a dead clean tone. Having played and owned many different amps over the years, in my experience, the answer is an unequivocal yes.
Lake Placid Blues
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
I'm still buzzed about the clean tone I was getting from a my best strat straight into a JTM-45 last night. The JTM was just on the verge of breaking up with the guitar volume on ten and with the guitar volume just backed off a smig it was an incredible clean tone. One of the best tones and feels that I ever got clean or dirty. It was a tone that made every note perfect no matter what note it was. I don't think I could of got that out of SS or even a good modeling amp.
I'm still buzzed about the clean tone I was getting from a my best strat straight into a JTM-45 last night. The JTM was just on the verge of breaking up with the guitar volume on ten and with the guitar volume just backed off a smig it was an incredible clean tone. One of the best tones and feels that I ever got clean or dirty. It was a tone that made every note perfect no matter what note it was. I don't think I could of got that out of SS or even a good modeling amp.
IM4Tone
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
BTW, on-the-verge of breakup is one of my favorite tones as well.
Have to agree!
Without the benefit of hearing your clean tone you reference, I'm guessing (and it's just that, a guess) I wouldn't categorize it as 'clean'...relatively clean probably, but not clean.
BTW, on-the-verge of breakup is one of my favorite tones as well.
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
The simple fact of the matter is that 100% clean sounds like pewp... Even amps (whether they be tube or ss) all clip the signal small amounts and add tiny amounts of compression. In small amounts we dont hear these as distortion, We hear these as harmonics and body. There is a definite threshold that can be measured where the signal is being clipped (which is exactly what distortion is) but your ears arent hearing it as such. You think of it warmth and depth. This is why people dont use hi fi amps for clean tones. They are rather boring and fatiguing to listen to.
The simple fact of the matter is that 100% clean sounds like pewp... Even amps (whether they be tube or ss) all clip the signal small amounts and add tiny amounts of compression. In small amounts we dont hear these as distortion, We hear these as harmonics and body. There is a definite threshold that can be measured where the signal is being clipped (which is exactly what distortion is) but your ears arent hearing it as such. You think of it warmth and depth. This is why people dont use hi fi amps for clean tones. They are rather boring and fatiguing to listen to.
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
Without hearing it why even make that guess? For all you know it might have been the lushest sexiest clean tone you've every heard... Its quite possible with the volume pulled back he was getting a real clean tone.
Without hearing it why even make that guess? For all you know it might have been the lushest sexiest clean tone you've every heard... Its quite possible with the volume pulled back he was getting a real clean tone.
Lake Placid Blues
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
There probably was a little of that "harmonics" and "body" that you can't hear as distortion and compression in it as well, truth be told. I often back the volume on the guitar down just a wee bit, "clean" or overdriven. That's a little tone secret Steve Morse told me about years and years ago.
I remember playing (guitar) through a SS Peavy bass amp once in a studio because that what was there. It had a knob where you could artficially add a little compression and drive to so it didn't sound so sterile. This old hand came over and dialed in a just a bit of dirt, saying: "SS amps are way too clean for guitars, even for clean chords."
There probably was a little of that "harmonics" and "body" that you can't hear as distortion and compression in it as well, truth be told. I often back the volume on the guitar down just a wee bit, "clean" or overdriven. That's a little tone secret Steve Morse told me about years and years ago.
I remember playing (guitar) through a SS Peavy bass amp once in a studio because that what was there. It had a knob where you could artficially add a little compression and drive to so it didn't sound so sterile. This old hand came over and dialed in a just a bit of dirt, saying: "SS amps are way too clean for guitars, even for clean chords."
LLL
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
One of the most pristine, spankin'-sparkly clean tones you can get comes from the Rockman Sustainor in CLN or CLN2 setting:
The Sustainor was made in the early-to-mid 80s and was part of the Rockman Rockmodules lineup.
The Rockmodules had no tubes but were 100% analog signal path.
Here's what the clean sounds like in conjunction with the Stereo Chorus Rockmodule and Stereo Delay Rockmodule:
Rockman SUS SE (3 modes) Spanky Clean
(clip was for testing the 3 modes on the delay)
This is direct in to the DAW, BTW (no poweramp or speakers involved).
Another nod to the Roland Jazz Chorus amp which someone previously mentioned.
One of the most pristine, spankin'-sparkly clean tones you can get comes from the Rockman Sustainor in CLN or CLN2 setting:
The Sustainor was made in the early-to-mid 80s and was part of the Rockman Rockmodules lineup.
The Rockmodules had no tubes but were 100% analog signal path.
Here's what the clean sounds like in conjunction with the Stereo Chorus Rockmodule and Stereo Delay Rockmodule:
Rockman SUS SE (3 modes) Spanky Clean
(clip was for testing the 3 modes on the delay)
This is direct in to the DAW, BTW (no poweramp or speakers involved).
Another nod to the Roland Jazz Chorus amp which someone previously mentioned.
Last edited:
IM4Tone
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
Because of the statement "on the verge of breaking up".
Edgecrusher
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
I like how you cherry pick a quote out of context.. here is the real quote
I like how you cherry pick a quote out of context.. here is the real quote
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
And I would totally disagree with this. Over the years, the JC-120 and it's little brethren have always sounded harsh and brittle to me. My SUNN Solos amp, due to it's MOSFET design, has a warmth that the JC-120 simply doesn't have.
I don't think you'd mistake the Roland for a tube amp.
Bill
And I would totally disagree with this. Over the years, the JC-120 and it's little brethren have always sounded harsh and brittle to me. My SUNN Solos amp, due to it's MOSFET design, has a warmth that the JC-120 simply doesn't have.
I don't think you'd mistake the Roland for a tube amp.
Bill
crusty philtrum
Vintageologist
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
In my opinion, the clean tones of a valve amp are definitely preferable to those of s/s. There is a greater harmonic richness and organic response to touch. The reality is that true flat-response sound has little appeal for electric guitar ... what we think of as cleans in the guitar world are actually mostly somewhat 'coloured' in some way, giving character (which is why we say an amp sounds 'good' or 'not so good'). If most of us heard true, flat-response sounds, we wouldn't like it very much, except maybe for music reproduction systems, i.e. hi-fi.
Some people hear and feel the differences, others do not. I would hazard a guess that once people do hear and feel the differences, they tend will to prefer valve amps. Modellers are only trying to imitate valve amps to begin with.
In my opinion, the clean tones of a valve amp are definitely preferable to those of s/s. There is a greater harmonic richness and organic response to touch. The reality is that true flat-response sound has little appeal for electric guitar ... what we think of as cleans in the guitar world are actually mostly somewhat 'coloured' in some way, giving character (which is why we say an amp sounds 'good' or 'not so good'). If most of us heard true, flat-response sounds, we wouldn't like it very much, except maybe for music reproduction systems, i.e. hi-fi.
Some people hear and feel the differences, others do not. I would hazard a guess that once people do hear and feel the differences, they tend will to prefer valve amps. Modellers are only trying to imitate valve amps to begin with.
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
Most clean tone really isn't. Our whole guitar tone that we idolise is a myriad of harmonics and overtones. Its just that those tend to be a soft clipping effect rather than the obvious overdrive of a raging tube amp. Even a fender turned down won't be the pure pristine clean if you really look at it critically.
The reason tube amps are so good a creating clean is that for a lot of designs, the clean/overdive boundary is really wide - and what you think is clean is really mildly overdriven.
Most clean tone really isn't. Our whole guitar tone that we idolise is a myriad of harmonics and overtones. Its just that those tend to be a soft clipping effect rather than the obvious overdrive of a raging tube amp. Even a fender turned down won't be the pure pristine clean if you really look at it critically.
The reason tube amps are so good a creating clean is that for a lot of designs, the clean/overdive boundary is really wide - and what you think is clean is really mildly overdriven.
crusty philtrum
Vintageologist
Re: Clean Tone Tube Amp Question
I once saw the sonic area between clean and dirty described as 'soiled', which i thought was a great and apt description.
I spent 18 months of my life developing and building some all-tube microphone preamps. When i finally got to building my own, Rolls-Royce version (two-channel) based on the prototypes, i auditioned it by running a CD player through it and hooked the preamps into my studio monitoring system. For a while, i couldn't hear any difference between the signal directly into the amp or going in via the tube preamps. Eventually i heard the difference .... whilst my mic preamps were extremely clean and clear, i finally heard the subtle but undeniable difference ... and it was one of dimension. The tube preamps gave the signal a greater three-dimensional quality. And that was using the preamps as a 'line-in' device, when used for instruments and microphones, extra tubes add more qualities.
Tubes = even-order harmonic emphasis. Transistors = odd-order harmonic emphasis. The differences are audible in the world of guitar amplifiers. A quality instrument with quality pickups mates superbly with valve amps, and there will be a distinct depth and three-dimensional detail to the sound that isn't present when you plug the same instrument into a s/s amp. Sometimes some people will refer to a part of this as an amp having some 'swirl' to it's sound.
And the harmonic emphasis (or other sonic artifacts) are technically 'distortion', but not in the way 'distortion' is usually thought of by guitar players. At that level, (pertaining to clean gutar sounds) i prefer to think of it as 'colouration', and in a decent amp, it's a desireable colouration. As i've mentioned, it's a combination of sound and response to the player's input.
But don't listen to anything i say, I'm old and don't know anything. (one interesting thing i read whilst doing a lot of in-depth research whilst developing my mic preamps was that a survey had been done that discovered that whilst younger ears worked better than older ears, the older listeners heard things better. I assume that maybe it's because the older ears had learnt more about how to listen rather than simply hearing).
I once saw the sonic area between clean and dirty described as 'soiled', which i thought was a great and apt description.
I spent 18 months of my life developing and building some all-tube microphone preamps. When i finally got to building my own, Rolls-Royce version (two-channel) based on the prototypes, i auditioned it by running a CD player through it and hooked the preamps into my studio monitoring system. For a while, i couldn't hear any difference between the signal directly into the amp or going in via the tube preamps. Eventually i heard the difference .... whilst my mic preamps were extremely clean and clear, i finally heard the subtle but undeniable difference ... and it was one of dimension. The tube preamps gave the signal a greater three-dimensional quality. And that was using the preamps as a 'line-in' device, when used for instruments and microphones, extra tubes add more qualities.
Tubes = even-order harmonic emphasis. Transistors = odd-order harmonic emphasis. The differences are audible in the world of guitar amplifiers. A quality instrument with quality pickups mates superbly with valve amps, and there will be a distinct depth and three-dimensional detail to the sound that isn't present when you plug the same instrument into a s/s amp. Sometimes some people will refer to a part of this as an amp having some 'swirl' to it's sound.
And the harmonic emphasis (or other sonic artifacts) are technically 'distortion', but not in the way 'distortion' is usually thought of by guitar players. At that level, (pertaining to clean gutar sounds) i prefer to think of it as 'colouration', and in a decent amp, it's a desireable colouration. As i've mentioned, it's a combination of sound and response to the player's input.
But don't listen to anything i say, I'm old and don't know anything. (one interesting thing i read whilst doing a lot of in-depth research whilst developing my mic preamps was that a survey had been done that discovered that whilst younger ears worked better than older ears, the older listeners heard things better. I assume that maybe it's because the older ears had learnt more about how to listen rather than simply hearing).
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