Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

[Diminished Triad]

Fortunately I have a guitar tech that can assemble Warmoth parts/bodies/accessories and compete with the signature guitars I have manufactured by Fender, PRS, Gibson, Yamaha, and others. For Christmas I ordered a few standard Fender guitars for two of my boys, and I was very surprised that after playing my Warmoth ordered/designed guitars (I try to always select the best accessories/hardware available) it seemed clear for about 1/2 the price I can design and order a guitar kit from Warmoth and as long as I've selected very high quality hardware (and always SD pickups!) my guitar tech ends up turning over a guitar that can compete with my signature guitars.

I think I own maybe 10 manufactured guitars and 10 made from Warmoth kits - and there is just no PRICE comparison for the quality of guitar. For example, my favorite signature guitars today are the Fender David Gilmour and Richie Blackmore models. But without question, close behind are my Warmoth models and literally at about 1/2 the price. From what I read here there are other kit companies and many really good luthiers not charging what it would cost to have the same guitar made by the Fender Custom Shop or ordering a Les Paul off the internet.

With Fender itself expanding into the "design your own guitar" market, I wonder if this is where a higher percentage of the higher end guitars will come from in the very near future. Warmoth offes the 2Tek bridge that is the best hardtail I've played yet. They offer SD pickups. Pretty much the best of everything except the Fender/PRS/Gibson sticker.............or sticker price!

Of course, I'm hoping soon to learn how to design/build a Taylor T5 style "acoustic sounding" electric guitar with a piezo bridge pickup. When I finish that project, then I'll be convinced companies like Warmoth are now able to offer consumers just about everything offered by the large manufacturers at a much reduced price.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

Apples and oranges. Some people have done the research and know enough to go custom. Some people need something designed to appeal to most people because they don't know what they're looking for. Then there are guys like me who know what they prefer but can deal with compromising.

They're all tools for jobs. I ordered a custom warmoth and didn't end up liking it. I've got a $2000 Gibson, a $150 epiphone, and everything in between... And I use all of them for what they're good for.

A true gourmet can find the most authentic Italian restaurant in the country... The average person can always find an olive garden... And some of us will settle for a pizza.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

The thing is the manufacturers are licensing some of those designs to boutique kit builders, so they have some leverage to ensure they get their price, or pull the plug if they want to control competition. For example, I searched Warmoth for a Rosewood Tele body and noticed that was just about the only Tele body they don't have - and conspicuously Fender this year re-released a Rosewood Tele for $5000. I have no doubt I will have to wait until the Fender model is off the market to get a Rosewood Tele body.

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

About 6 months ago I made a special request of Warmoth for both a Rosewood body and Rosewood laminate top.....and Warmoth produced it for me. No guarantees they will do this for everyone all the time, but just passing on the info in case someone else wants to make the special request. If they will no longer honor such a request, then I am fortunate to get mine in just in time. Good luck!

 

[AlexR]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

When you buy a namebrand, part of the $$ you pay for is the esteem of the name. This gives you resale value and desirability.

Warmoth is a cheaper alternative, especially for international buyers. In addition to this, the custom nature allows you to put almost any combination together you can think of, so upgrades are unnecessary if you know what you are after. The issue is that you have very little resale value. The hit then becomes greater than the extra amount you would have spent on the name brand.

Boutique luthiers can be both good for resale or bad, and their guitars compete with the top line custom shop stuff but often undercut it. If you buy a Suhr then you can expect good return as it is well known, and very high quality. However if you bought a Bluestone, Fletcher guitar or Ron Kirn strat..........because maybe these makers are not so well known you would take a hit even though the guitar is extraordinary. The custom features appeal to fewer people.

 

[Johtosotku]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

There's nothing wrong with kit guitars but the price comparison isn't really accurate. I buy my guitars used and get the money back or more if I sell them. Most Warmoth builds etc. take a big price hit when sold and too often they're made with some weird specs that may have suited the original owner but not me or other prospective buyers. There's so many used guitars on the market that I don't often see the need to buy new.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

exactly. if you sell your warmoth you wont get the same return that you will on a fender.

there is lots of good aftermarket stuff out there and as long as the person assembling them and doing the fret work does a good job you can have a great guitar for a decent price.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

The one piece that gets left out of kit guitars is labor. Sure, totaling up the cost of all the parts is definitely going to come in less than an off-the-shelf guitar. But add in your time (what is it worth?), the cost of the paint (if you paint it yourself), a good setup, etc. Add all that in to the cost and it'll be a lot closer, if not more, than an off-the-shelf guitar of the same caliber.

When I built my SG Jr, I kept a record of what everything cost me up to the paint cans, rags, sandpaper, everything that was used to make it. All of it plus parts was a little more than $800.00. Had I not gotten a custom made P-90, it would be less than $800. But then add in my time and use an average of what a seasoned luthier would charge and it would be over $1000 easily.

I love making my own and am looking at making another one, this time the body from scratch.

 

[stringbender11]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

I'm really iffy on partscasters. They can come out great, but I've seen some less than stellar playing ones - ones that were put together by techs and played as well as they could ever hope to, but still were poor players despite costing a lot. IMO sometimes parts just don't match up well, even with quality stuff.

I actually have a parts-o-caster myself (bought it already built) - my only Strat, and it plays really well. But as I said, I've played some that cost way more to build than their sound and playability warranted. I think when you buy an actual Fender you're getting better matched necks and bodies, and they're being assembled by people that really know what they're doing. JMO of course.

 

[Johtosotku]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

It is true that no matter how good the specs and craftsmanship are on paper, you never know how the guitar really plays or sounds. I always prefer to try before I buy and that's not feasible with partscasters.

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

I grew up listening mostly to Fenders on stage and when learning and playing in my first bands in the 70's we all played Fenders. Still my favorite brand today. But I haven't seen a Fender bridge compete with what I can order myself for a Warmoth custom designed guitar, nor have I heard/played a Fender that has all 3 single coil pickups compete with the best SD pickups.....unless of course in some cases a Fender signature is using some SD pups (like the Gilmour signature). The nut for the neck is a closer call but still seems that whether the tuning machine/knobs, or even the laminate choices for the body, Warmoth possibilities exceed what you can buy off of any brand name manufactured guitar.

Maybe I've missed some great Fender parts that are top shelf......and I do like that Warmoth offers me a chance to build a high end guitar and still with the vintage Fender 7.25 neck radius (Fender's '62 reissues are all around good guitars) - hard to find a great Fender-made 7.25 neck radius guitar off the shelf these days. I know they have jags and others but not, for example, a high quality 2014 strat (Unless they are remaking a '64 or '54). I still prefer Fenders from all the large manufacturers likely because I was raised on Fenders. Just saying that Warmoth and others really provide a great alternative for those looking for select hardware (and even wood) for a guitar to be played (understood not near the same resale value) and look really, really good!

AND, a real good point earlier above posted about not forgetting to add the cost of the guitar tech putting it all together. I'm fortunate to have found a guitar tech that does it for about 10 percent of what the entire kit costs.
How about those 2Tek bridges! Now if I can just find a way to design a Taylor T5-like Warmoth acoustic sounding electric guitar!

 

[uOpt]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

"Signature" what?

Fender has a lot of guitars that are meh by any standards you can apply and are still some poor celebrity's signature guitar by label.

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

"Signature" what?

Fender has a lot of guitars that are meh by any standards you can apply and are still some poor celebrity's signature guitar by label.

The Fender David Gilmour and Richie Blackmore signature guitars play and sound great for me. And I enjoy the 7.25 radius necks too. But at about half their price, I can get the best from Warmoth and come very, very close to the quality of either of those signature guitars.

I few months ago I inquired with a major distributor/retailer whom I've bought a number of guitars from whether there was a real difference in sound and play from the $8,000 Buddy Holly signature guitar. He knew I had bought a few guitars from him and I likely plan to buy a few more if any decent signatures come up again.............and he told me that he thought the Buddy Holly guitar could not compete with a $3,000 Fender re-issue in terms of playability and all the rest. Again, no doubt if you are designing and building a Warmoth guitar with all the best parts and wood you will take a hit if you end up selling the guitar later instead of playing it 'til you drop. But if you intend to keep your guitar for life......you can get great value off of designing your own guitars, ordering your favorite wood, and of course the hardware you believe to be most solid and preferred. As just one example, some of the Fender bridges cost less than $50 on Warmoth......and just can't compare with a $200 2Tek bridge. But when you add up your final bill with Warmoth.....including what most techs likely charge for assembly, and this includes your choice of SD pickups, most times you can get your custom designed guitar for less than what my favorite guitar manufacturer (Fender) sells a similar model with much lower quality parts.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

There is no doubting that you can buy very close to the same as an AVRI or similar guitar for much less.

Its all to do with having the name on the headstock. You buy into the name, thats what costs the money. And there is no crystal ball that will indicate what guitars you actually will keep for life, despite all the good intentions.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

FYI, there are at least 2 Blackmore models, possibly 3.

 

[aleclee]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

This analysis by Zerberus came to mind when I saw this thread: https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?41288-For-the-quot-Hardcore-Warmoth-Fans-quot

While I've done the booteek built-to-spec thing, I'm not a strong advocate of that approach, either through Warmoth or a builder large or small. YMMV but my experience makes me lean more towards buying something that meets 95% of my wants than something that I think meets them 100%. IMO, the bang for the buck isn't there, particularly since you'll often take a bath on resale.

That's not to say that I haven't contemplated putting a Warmoth neck (with a Wolfgang carve) on my MIM Tele.

 

[daan]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

If you buy USED "boo-tique" stuff, you save a ton of $ compared to NEW Fender things. I have a couple of Warmoth Strat bodies that were just under $300 new, and I got them for $150. It's the same thing with pickups, I've bought tons of different "name brand" ones, but if you go used they seem to cost 1/2 to 1/3 (even less if you can deal with short leads). So finding somebody's used Parts-O-Caster can get you top-shelf quality parts, for waaaaay less than a new Fender.

 

[Diminished Triad]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

FYI, there are at least 2 Blackmore models, possibly 3.

Thanks for info... I bought the 2013 model still advertised on the Fender site. A really great playing guitar.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

Fortunately I have a guitar tech that can assemble Warmoth parts/bodies/accessories and compete with the signature guitars I have manufactured by Fender, PRS, Gibson, Yamaha, and others. For Christmas I ordered a few standard Fender guitars for two of my boys, and I was very surprised that after playing my Warmoth ordered/designed guitars (I try to always select the best accessories/hardware available) it seemed clear for about 1/2 the price I can design and order a guitar kit from Warmoth and as long as I've selected very high quality hardware (and always SD pickups!) my guitar tech ends up turning over a guitar that can compete with my signature guitars.

I think I own maybe 10 manufactured guitars and 10 made from Warmoth kits - and there is just no PRICE comparison for the quality of guitar. For example, my favorite signature guitars today are the Fender David Gilmour and Richie Blackmore models. But without question, close behind are my Warmoth models and literally at about 1/2 the price. From what I read here there are other kit companies and many really good luthiers not charging what it would cost to have the same guitar made by the Fender Custom Shop or ordering a Les Paul off the internet.



.

I am not sure if your question warrants an explanation. You are comparing a 'signature' model made by renowned manufacturers to 'your own' model made by a no-name manufacturer (the luthier). Of course, the price gap is definitely huge, even with your expenses for the high quality parts factored in.

Fender and Gibson and the rest of the big names can charge high prices for average guitars (whose manufacturing and material costs are a fraction of the price) because of their brand equity (this rule applies to other manufacturers in other industries). If it's a signature guitar, you definitely have to pay extra for the royalty or whatever it's called to be paid to the artist whose name is inscribed on the guitar's headstock.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Do big name manufacturers compete with Warmoth or boutique luthiers?

The prices in this thread are totally off, too.

A plain painted Neck + Body from warmoth plus quality hardware is a lot more expensive than indicated here, and then it is thick poly finished and still has an uncut nut.

Skippy that signature nonsense in the Fender catalog, a AVRI was very reasonably priced before 2013, a lot more reasonable than just comparing warmoth to Fender's custom shop.