Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

[mind_transplant]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

No way any human can tell the difference between a brazilian rosewood and an indian rosewood fretboard. Not possible.

Really? Studies have shown that it is possible to hear sounds even when the vibration moves your eardrum less than a thousandth of an inch, and that people can distinguish pitches separated by 1/20th of a semitone, or sounds with a pause between them of only a few milliseconds. In terms of biological/neurological limitations, what you're all discussing is well within the realm of human abilities.

That being said, I'm sure 9 out of 10 people can't tell the difference. But 9 out of 10 people can't sing middle C if you ask them to, or tell if your piano is tuned to A-440 or A-441. Yet many of us can easily sing a C, or tell when a piano is starting to go flat. The reason Lew can and you (pardon me if I presume so) can't hear these aforementioned tonal differences has nothing to do with your ears, but instead has to do with how you process the sounds you do hear. This really isn't an issue of what you can hear, it's with what degree of precision you listen. If you're going to drag science into this discussion, I'm afraid most research in this field suggests people can and do hear with the degree of precision Lew has mentioned...:amish:

 

[St-Jimmy]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

Really? Studies have shown that it is possible to hear sounds even when the vibration moves your eardrum less than a thousandth of an inch, and that people can distinguish pitches separated by 1/20th of a semitone, or sounds with a pause between them of only a few milliseconds. In terms of biological/neurological limitations, what you're all discussing is well within the realm of human abilities.

That being said, I'm sure 9 out of 10 people can't tell the difference. But 9 out of 10 people can't sing middle C if you ask them to, or tell if your piano is tuned to A-440 or A-441. Yet many of us can easily sing a C, or tell when a piano is starting to go flat. The reason Lew can and you (pardon me if I presume so) can't hear these aforementioned tonal differences has nothing to do with your ears, but instead has to do with how you process the sounds you do hear. This really isn't an issue of what you can hear, it's with what degree of precision you listen. If you're going to drag science into this discussion, I'm afraid most research in this field suggests people can and do hear with the degree of precision Lew has mentioned...:amish:

Amen, brother! :beerchug:

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

I know you have Yoda as your avatar, but let's not start believing it...

No way any human can tell the difference between a brazilian rosewood and an indian rosewood fretboard. Not possible.

I disagree, and from the way your´re arguing here from what seems to be a near omniscient standpoint I can only recommend you do as I did and build a guitar then swap the fretboard leaving everything else identical, and then try to tell me there´s no difference.

I know I hear one, and the only variable was the fretboard wood ... not the setup, not the hardware, not the pickups, not the neck, not the body.... just the fretboard.

As Lew said, don´t assume others have the same limitations that you do.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

I'm going to avoid the rosewood all together and try to provide one little bit of opinion back on the original topic

I do believe there is tonal wood diference as many have listed above- I think fender style players get more opportunity to hear this as rosewood and maple are common and ebony certainy happens-

But I think scale length is a larger factor that is often ignored (maybe not as much on this forum)- I think there is a big difference in snap (speed of attack of harmonic series- I most associate this with scale length and maybe some pup) vs timbre (ratio of all harmonics- I associate this with wood and pups)-

This may be be obvious, but a lot of times when someone tells me a guitar is bright, it just sounds snappy to me-

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

Once you delaminate a board and reapply another one you've compromised the entire experiment. Forget about the structural and fretting implications, the time between actual play of each completely eliminates the "A/B" factor.

You guys crack me up. I have good ears, I've been building guitars for a long time. I am the type of person that can hear things when others can't. Most of the time someone "hearing" the subtle differences is really comprised of their own ego applying the variance. I'd like to see a study filled with placebos and see where they land. Do a blind test with four guitars, but claim that its really eight guitars, and give the guy the same four twice. But tell him the second batch all have brazillian rosewood. Then sit back and watch the guy go on about how much more complex the second batch was.

What I've done over the past decade or so is the opposite of what most of you are doing. I've taught my ears to listen to 99.9% of what's actually important, and not become a "tone jerk" about the other .1% no one cares about. So yeah, I listen to pitch and tonality, but then I just shut up and play!

Fretboard woods are extremely important in a guitar's tone. They each have distinct tonal properties. But within a certain species there is so much variance, that saying you can hear Brazillian Rosewood is such an ego trip that its nauseating. What if you had a lousy piece of Brazillian, vs. a great piece of Indian? Then is the Brazillian more complex? Is it more rich sounding than the best piece of Indian I can find? There're vast differences in rigidity within one tree, let alone one species or region. Rigidity within Rosewood variants is more of a tonal influence than anything else. Part of what makes an Ebony board sound the way it does is the surface hardness, but another part is that it holds the neck very stiff, while Rosewood allows more movement. If you cut deep, oversized fret slots in Ebony and fret using the "pool of glue" method, you can completely ruin the snap and attack Ebony is known for. And a great piece of Ebony can't "save" a soft, rubbery Maple neck blank. So quit the whole "brazillian vs indian" debate and just say that you can hear the difference between a great piece of Rosewood with nice open pores, and a lousy, green, fibrous one. I mean when does it end?

Could you all hear it if I pulled 6 turns of wire off of one of MJ's custom winds? How about 7 turns? And did you write a better rock song because of those last 7 turns? Anyone ever heard this?: "Whoa dude! That was a great set! That last tune, when you pulled out the guitar with the Brazillian Rosewood board-man that really spoke to me. The whole night I was like hey this all sounds like Indian Rosewood and then POW! You played the Brazillian one and I was like whoa!"

 

[Kommerzbassist]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

Anyone ever heard this?: "Whoa dude! That was a great set! That last tune, when you pulled out the guitar with the Brazillian Rosewood board-man that really spoke to me. The whole night I was like hey this all sounds like Indian Rosewood and then POW! You played the Brazillian one and I was like whoa!"

Haha but this is the interesting thing about tone... sometimes only the player himself will notice a difference. But maybe it's impotant to him?! Who knows...

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

I think Kommerzbassist nailed the whole thing- Listen to practically any guitar in the house or even in a semi-complex mix and see if you can even pick out the model- Not easy.

But it can make a tremendous differnce in the performance because it has so much impact on how the instrument responds- Case in point:

Had a 69SG special (p90s) and 61lpsg special (converted to pafs) and in the house I'm convinced that no one could tell the difference- But I prefered the p90s for getting my sound-

A keyboard playing buddy was visiting town and happened to see us play twice over a week- I asked him how the sound was in comparison- He said exactly the same sound but I was clearly more comfortable the first time he saw us over the 2nd- Why?

Had to change to the 61 because the RF was too bad for the 68 in the second venue and it really changed the elements for me- Otherwise both nights seemed exactly the same- I just was constantly adjusting for the tone-

BTW, gave up P90s shortly after that and sold the 68- Trying to build my first noise free p90 axe now

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

These differences we're discussing are subtle. Nearly everything we discuss here is fairly subtle in terms of differences in tone. That's what we do here.

The diff between a Jazz neck and a 59 neck are subtle...so is the diff between an a2 Antiquity and a Seth Lover. But there IS a difference.

We're a bunch of tone connoisseurs on a tone quest for the ultimate tone and that ultimate tone is differant for each of us. Plus, our tastes change so there really is no ultimate tone.

Regardless, there are people here who can hear subtle differences that the masses and even many other musicians just don't notice or don't feel are all that important.

But guys like Zerb, John (Stratdeluxer), Christian (TGWIF), Luke, Joe (Gearjoneser), BachtoRock, and others can and do hear these subtle differences and it's alot of fun to tweak our guitars for our current idea of the ultimate tone.

Fingerboard woods do make a difference in the way any guitar (electric or acoustic) sounds and maple, ebony, Indian rosewood and Brazilian rosewood do all make a guitar sound subtley differant.

Period.

Lew

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

The bottom line I get from this thread is the same thing I´m seeing in a lot of threads lately, regardless of topic.

You have a different opinion or experience that someone who thinks they know everything disagrees with. So therefore you´re

a. On an Ego Trip
b. Inexperienced
c. Misinformed
d. Trolling

No wonder I spend less and less time here...... It used to be possible to have a levelheaded discussion among peers without snide remarks, blanket insults or derogatory comments...

I guess "Keep it Respectful" is a bit too vague for some.... Or they think it only applies to the forum overview page

Though Frank, I´m honestly curious as to the compromise in taking a neck I finished building a few days prior, steaming off the fretboard properly, removing all residue, and regluing a new identical fretboard in a new material wiht identical specs and identical glue.... There must be something that all german luthiers don´t know about this process, as in our formal training there´s no mention of any structural, tonal, playability or other compromises.... But then again, we also assume that pros are doing the job. Seriously, I´m very interested in what your experience shows to be true vs. what mine shows.

AS far as the A/B factor: ever heard of something called recording and playing back at a later time?

 

[Farkus]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

I think most of the folks here, on both sides of the argument, have made some very good points.

The key here is that even though we're talking about specific woods (two types of rosewood) there can be a huge variance between two different pieces of Indian Rosewood. Even beyond that, a "bright" sounding rosewood board can sound brighter than a particularly dark maple board.

That said, if I was familiar with two necks and you swapped them on the same Strat body (all things, including the player being equal), I feel like I could tell you nearly 100% of the time which one was being played by the sound. That doesn't mean that I can listen to the radio and say, "Whoa, listen to that Ebony boarded Strat", but all things being equal, I can tell a difference.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

And I obviously realize most of what we do is for us the player, not the audience. A 1/8" change in the action height can make or break a gig for some guitarists, as can a '59 vs. a Jazz in the neck, or new strings vs. old ones. Musicians (myself included) DO play off of the subtle differences. So some of what I'm saying is tongue-in-cheek. I've always got 35-40 guitars and a purpose for each of them. And some of them seem almost identical but I know they aren't. Aside from middle single coils, none of those guitars have duplicate pickups. So I'm as nuts as a lot of you are, perhaps I just don't take myself as seriously.

Z-Your fretboard swap is fine. I already assumed the labor is flawless. That in and of itself isn't the main compromise of the experiment. That's why I said "forget about the structural etc..." I'm just talking about the labor time gap alone. Yes, recording and playback is a perfect A/B until you add the human playing element. Don't get me wrong, your experiment is completely valid for gauging the difference between Ebony, Rosewood, Maple, Pao Ferro, etc. But correct me if I'm wrong, you didn't use that method simply to compare good examples of Indian and Brazillian Rosewood, right? Because that's the kind of minutia that I'm talking about. That's the kind of minutia I left behind years ago.

Brazillian generally looks better, and usually has a higher quotient of "good pieces" per tree. It's more expensive because of it's rarity. But I consider it to be more in the category of "gold hardware & abalone inlays". For acoustic guitar backs and sides it's an entirely different story. In those cases, the Rosewood stands alone as a tone generator AND reflective surface. It's entirely different than a 1/4" piece laminated to a neck across its entire plane. The neck wood greatly governs the fretboard vibrations, and to a certain extent, you're also hearing some of the "fight between the woods" than the piece resonating by itself, aside from surface reflections. I think it's easy to apply the absolute tonal benefits/variants of Brazillian in an acoustic guitar setting to the fretboard function. But it doesn't correlate. That's where I think the psyche interjects it's own self fulfilling prophesy into the mix, and where a lot of money is wasted on the ego in this industry (generally speaking-not any of you guys in particular) I just found it rather amusing that Lew and others were being called out on the Brazilian/Indian fretboard thing, so I jumped in.

While I do understand there are general differences, I feel there are more differences from piece to piece than simply from Brazilian to Indian. (I'm not in total agreement with JPage either) I feel the same way about Honduran Mahogany for bodies. It's so rare, that I've seen total crap pieces of Honduran for more money than a fantastic piece of African. Although I might choose Brazilian RW or Honduran Mahogany for a certain project, I would challenge anyone to tell me what I used after the guitar is built AND plugged in, (after all, these are electric guitars) just from playing it blindfolded.

Lew, I noticed you didn't include me among the elite list of names who can hear all the subtle differences. I'd like to submit a formal request to be added. :laugh2:

 

[CurtO]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

I find that there are so many ways a guitars tone is affected that the fretboards effect on tone is relatively small. Pickups, tone pots, body woods, strings, etc. all effect tone. Also, if you play into effects pedals, the body and neck woods become even less important. It's soo easy to make one guitar sound similar to another using multi effects. Plugging straight into a tube amp on the other hand will bring out the true sound of your instrument.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

There are an infinite (nearly) variety of things that affect the tone: Body shape, size, wood - Neck construction, attachment, wood, scale - Pup type, model, location, height. We won't even get into amps, effects etc. But I think that consensus is "in general" roesewood is warm and soft, maple is bright and hard. I like the Feel and Tone of Rosewood, but appreciate the value of the others for particular purposes.:beerchug:

As for the "experiment" -Just go to guitar center and snag assorted strats with maple and rosewood boards. Squires are likely better because quality is not an issue - they are all crap (but good crap for the price!). I think even an "inexperineced" ear could come to "hear" the difference just by closing his eyes and listening to the store dude play a few riffs while swapping guitars.:dammit:

Now - If anyone wants to throw down w/ the Aceman regarding a mixed model Analysis of Variance measuring between-factors such as wood density nested within wood type against repeated measures on the subject (within) and trial number (within - Latin Square counter balance anyone?) Just let me know the time and place. Are you out there Eric Johnson; You might be interested in sponsoring such a thing...:33:

Finally - this all really comes down to one thing and you know what it is:


LEW ROCKS - YOU SUCK!

 

[MesaDCLP]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

Vault...

Not possible

 

[slash857]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

damn such hostility in this thread ... lol. i think you can hear a difference. idk about brazillian rosewood vs indian, but ive played nearly identical strats with rosewood and maple boards and i can tell a difference in tone. maybe its how u play it, true, but maybe you change your playing in such a way with one board that it alters the tone. did you think about that? liek for instance i find that i finger my notes with more pressure on my rosewood lp than my maple strat because the fretboard on the lp seems like it needs more pressure to get a note to resonate properly. so maybe they way ive altered my fingering for the rosewood fingerboard alters the sound. im sure that plays a factor into it.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

It's a complex situation, no doubt. But where are the "big rocks" of tone? #1 pups, #2 body wood, #3 scale, #4 board. It's a minor but significant thing I think.

And the hearing thing is a vaid question, but people can hear some really subtle things....

 

[BigDaddy]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

There is no answer to this in terms of what someone can and cannot hear. All that I said was it was possible and to say that it's total BS if someone says they can is just plain ignorant.

For instance I just purchased a Antiquity II firebird bridge pickup and put it into the neck position of first a white korina strat and than a black korina tele and it sounded like ass in both. I tired it in a swamp ash tele and it came to life, man it sounds amazing!!!!! The swamp ash and white Korina guitars have mahogany necks and the black Korina tele has a white korina neck. The white korina body guitar neck is mahogany with a Pau Ferro board.

I could tell what different pickups, bridges and woods sound like and they all sound different. Even a piece from the same tree will sound different but within certain parameters. I have tried a lot of combinations since all my necks are compatible with the bodies. Let me tell you that they all sound way different, I can hear the difference between ebony, rosewood, maple and Pau Ferro. I think if I worked with enough of the 2 or more types of Rosewood I would eventually be able to tell the difference.

I know I can tell the difference between a set of JJ 6V6, RCA 6V6 and Brimar 6V6 tubes in the same amp after re-biasing them the same.

 

[frehley]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

I think..wood tone....eh........the tone................nevermind!
I'll just go to rehersal and PLAY my guitar and write a hit song so as to
retire and get all the honeys. But please, continue the debate. I'm sure the
chicks are reading this as we speak. And when I get my grammy for "Album
of the year" I'll say I'm sorry and return my award and admit I used a guitar
made out of Pine. D@mmit.

 

[jpage]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

Good to see so many rush to Yoda's defense...:clap:

All of your loyalty is admirable. As for my omnicient conclusion that no human can tell the tonal difference between indian and brazilian rosewood fretboards, I'll stick to it. Even if you all call me names in that big scary fontmg: Common sense, folks. Take a step back and realize what you are saying. Whoever made the comment that there would be as great a difference between different examples of the same strain of wood makes a great point. Looks like that was Frank. Good point. Of course I also know from experience that no human can tell the difference between those examples either. And the reason I believe you didn't make Yoda's "list" was that you dared disagree...

If any of you want to believe that you have superhuman senses, fine with me. But when I read a ridiculous comment that brazilian rosewood fretboards are "more complex sounding":lmao: :eyecrazy: than indian I'm going to hoist this flag every time:bsflag:

 

[jpage]

Re: Do fretboard woods really matter that much?

I know I hear one, and the only variable was the fretboard wood ... not the setup, not the hardware, not the pickups, not the neck, not the body.... just the fretboard.

As Lew said, don´t assume others have the same limitations that you do.

Not possible. There are hundreds of factors that are different. Are they small differences? Absolutely. But no smaller than strain of rosewood used on a fretboard. And I have no limitations, just good common sense.

You folks are making this claim. The burden of proof is on you, not I.