Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

[Aceman]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

The voice of the pickup, IMO, comes from the wind (wire/amount/style), the magnet (type), and the poles (style/length/type). and maybe construction - well definitely (staked vs side by side, etc...)


Usually changing the magnet makes a significant change, or subtle, depending on the magnet and the rest...so yes.

 

[posite63]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

To my ears, the HB102N sounds closer to a '59n than a JazzN and the HB103N sounds like a PAF with a ceramic mag.

...

Taking off all what's possible of the wax, putting 1022 screws and 1215 slugs in both the HB102N and HB103N, makes'em pretty nice, no-mud neck p'ups.

But if you're looking for p'ups that djent, forget about the Duncan Designed p'ups and look no further than the Black Winter set.
HTH,

I've been mightily impressed with the 103N for the most part, and I'm planning to keep a couple in my Les Paul type guitars. I may give the poles/slugs and the A4s a try, thanks for that bit.

As far as the Black Winter, I may soon get the point of desperation where I can justify throwing down more than I had originally budgeted for this upgrade. I'm also very interested in the Nazgul.

 

[posite63]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

The voice of the pickup, IMO, comes from the wind (wire/amount/style), the magnet (type), and the poles (style/length/type). and maybe construction - well definitely (staked vs side by side, etc...)


Usually changing the magnet makes a significant change, or subtle, depending on the magnet and the rest...so yes.

After some testing, I'm of the opinion that the magnets play less of a role than the wind, and that a pickup does keep its characteristics after going through mods.

While I'm waiting for the A8s and UO A5s to arrive, I swapped the A5 and ceramic between the HB 102 and HB 103 I'm testing. I'll be honest, the results were disappointing.

The HB 102 with ceramic was slightly hotter and had a BIT more crunch on the low end, but really kept that mid-range spike.

The HB 103 w/an A5 had some low-mids added, but not in a good way. It still had a bland sound but had a LITTLE more fatness. But again, the differences were negligible.

Seriously, A/B'd I can hardly tell a difference. Maybe my ears are broken.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Remember, depending on the strength of the magnet, it can take a few days for the field to settle.
Also, a thick ceramic sounds different than a regular one.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[Mincer]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

My thought is a magnet swap certainly changes the voice of a pickup, but it varies. Some swaps are more drastic than others. But magnets are cheap, and it is always good to at least try swapping them out before you decide on a completely new pickup...especially if you are really close to where you want to be.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

All things being reasonably equal, meaning the wire gauge and insulation and the number of turns of wire being about the same, it's then the magnet that gives a humbucker it's signature sound.

The various Customs are proof of this.

The Custom, Custom Custom and Custom 5 are all the same pickup. The only difference is that each uses a different magnet: ceramic, Alnico 2 and Alnico 5 respectively.

The same appears to be true of the various PAF style pickups - the 59 and the Seth Lover for example.

They're both in the same ball park in terms of DC resistance and both use 42 gauge plain enamel copper wire.

They sound quite different from each other with a polished A2 magnet in the Seth and a polished A5 magnet in the 59.

But put the same magnet in the Seth and the 59 and they sound very, very similar to each other.

So if you're dealing with two models, but with very similar copper wire and insulating coating and roughly the same number of turns of wire, you're going to have to use different magnets...otherwise they'll sound too similar to each other.

 

[posite63]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Remember, depending on the strength of the magnet, it can take a few days for the field to settle.
Also, a thick ceramic sounds different than a regular one.

I sure hope this is the case. Guess I'll test again in a couple days.

My thought is a magnet swap certainly changes the voice of a pickup, but it varies. Some swaps are more drastic than others. But magnets are cheap, and it is always good to at least try swapping them out before you decide on a completely new pickup...especially if you are really close to where you want to be.

I really though swapping an A5 for ceramic in the HB 102 was going to make a very noticeable difference. I'm trying to keep a modern sound, but I'm wondering if an A2 or A4 in the HB 103 might give me a more full sound and keep the inherent tightness.

All things being reasonably equal, meaning the wire gauge and insulation and the number of turns of wire being about the same, it's then the magnet that gives a humbucker it's signature sound.

...

So if you're dealing with two models, but with very similar copper wire and insulating coating and roughly the same number of turns of wire, you're going to have to use different magnets...otherwise they'll sound too similar to each other.

I'm not disagreeing, as there are many good examples that you pointed out. But my experiment last night yielded shockingly minimal results. While I did notice some differences with each modded pickup, both models really kept their signature features while not adding much in the other lacking areas. I thought for sure that a ceramic in the HB 102 would provide adequate tightness. I guess it's apparent that the winds of both pickups are noticeably different.

Keeping in mind that I'm looking for a full AND tight sound, what other mods would you recommend?

 

[posite63]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Maybe most of you don't care, but I'm going to post this here for future generations to find through Google.

I swapped an A8 in to both the HB 102 and HB 103. Good results for both.

The 102 was indeed tighter (and hotter), the mids were a bit more rounded, but still had that signature spike. But I got it to djent pretty well, while keeping a good fat tone.

The 103 had more personality with an A8, but still kept its EQ qualities for the most part. Still djented better than the 102, but didn't quite fill out the other EQ areas as well as I hoped. I also tried an A5 and an UO A5 in the 103. The A5 was pretty good, ALMOST what I was looking for. But the UO A5 was AWFUL!!! Almost seemed saturated at various points across the EQ spectrum, not really sure how to describe it. Maybe I'll save that mag for some neck experimentation.

At the end of the day I chose the Duncan Designed HB 102 with A8 magnets for the bridge, then bought a total of 5 for all my solid body guitars. I'll keep the 103 around just for fun. Now I'm off to find the right neck pup.

Thanks for the help guys!

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

My thought is a magnet swap certainly changes the voice of a pickup, but it varies.

It depends on your definition of "voice". I call it "tonefootprint". Others, coming from lyrical chant, may call it "timbre".

Even heard through an AM transistor radio, or a ten thousand Genelec studio monitor, the human ear will recognized the voice of the same person every single time, even adding eq filtering.

This "tonefootprint" in a p'up is decided by what's called "coil geometry" or how the wire sits in the bobbin once wound together with the AWG#, the insulation type (PE, poly, Formvar,etc) and the thickness of the insulation. The metalurgy of the keeper bar, screws, slugs and last but not least the bar magnet are basically used to "fine-tune" the outcome as they were eq knobs.

More or less bass, more or less highs or more or less highs, the magnets can have a lesser or bigger impact on them, but are of crucial importance in the way the p'up "feels" or "behaves".

The tonefootprint remains the same. Moddings and tweaks will "enhance" or not what it's there, but can not be changed.

HTH,

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

It depends on your definition of "voice". I call it "tonefootprint". Others, coming from lyrical chant, may call it "timbre".

Even heard through an AM transistor radio, or a ten thousand Genelec studio monitor, the human ear will recognized the voice of the same person every single time, even adding eq filtering.

This "tonefootprint" in a p'up is decided by what's called "coil geometry" or how the wire sits in the bobbin once wound together with the AWG#, the insulation type (PE, poly, Formvar,etc) and the thickness of the insulation. The metalurgy of the keeper bar, screws, slugs and last but not least the bar magnet are basically used to "fine-tune" the outcome as they were eq knobs.

More or less bass, more or less highs or more or less highs, the magnets can have a lesser or bigger impact on them, but are of crucial importance in the way the p'up "feels" or "behaves".

The tonefootprint remains the same. Moddings and tweaks will "enhance" or not what it's there, but can not be changed.

HTH,

^^^ this ^^^

 

[RogerMexiko]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

It depends on your definition of "voice". I call it "tonefootprint". Others, coming from lyrical chant, may call it "timbre".

Even heard through an AM transistor radio, or a ten thousand Genelec studio monitor, the human ear will recognized the voice of the same person every single time, even adding eq filtering.

This "tonefootprint" in a p'up is decided by what's called "coil geometry" or how the wire sits in the bobbin once wound together with the AWG#, the insulation type (PE, poly, Formvar,etc) and the thickness of the insulation. The metalurgy of the keeper bar, screws, slugs and last but not least the bar magnet are basically used to "fine-tune" the outcome as they were eq knobs.

More or less bass, more or less highs or more or less highs, the magnets can have a lesser or bigger impact on them, but are of crucial importance in the way the p'up "feels" or "behaves".

The tonefootprint remains the same. Moddings and tweaks will "enhance" or not what it's there, but can not be changed.

HTH,

Brilliant explanation of a very complex phenomenon. Thank you.

 

[posite63]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Brilliant explanation of a very complex phenomenon. Thank you.

+1. That really makes some good sense.


I was thinking about my dillema the other night and wondered if I could take a coil from each pick up to get the best of both worlds. Upon Googling the concept, I found that it is a well-known modification. I know what I'll be doing the next couple nights now.

On that subject, does anyone know what type of wire the HB 103 uses? Google says the HB 102 uses 44g.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

what type of wire the HB 103 uses? Google says the HB 102 uses 44g.

Well, both bridge p'ups use AWG#44, Poly-insulated wire and both neck p'ups use AWG#42, Poly-insulated wire as well.

HTH,

 

[posite63]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Well, both bridge p'ups use AWG#44, Poly-insulated wire and both neck p'ups use AWG#42, Poly-insulated wire as well.

HTH,

Yeah thanks, sorry I forgot to specify.
Just wrapped up my swap, I now have a Duncan Designed HB123. Stuffing the leads back in to the casing was a real chore. 'Bout to install the pickup and see if there's any magic.

*EDIT* Don't want to jump to conclusions before complete testing, but I may have found exactly what I've been looking for.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Yeah thanks, sorry I forgot to specify.
Just wrapped up my swap, I now have a Duncan Designed HB123. Stuffing the leads back in to the casing was a real chore. 'Bout to install the pickup and see if there's any magic.

When you make "hybrids", rule-of-thumb is the following: to use the highest reading slug coil for the bridge position and the highest reading screw coil for the neck position on a 22-and/or a 24-fretter. The opposite applies for the neck position on a 20-fretter, usually a Jazz box.

As you're a newbie mag-swapper, I'd like to put emphasis in this either little known or plainly ignored factor: when you mag-swap a p'up, ANY p'up, depending on the Alnico grade used, there IS a time period where the new magnet "needs" to establish and stabilize the new magnetic field and projection, which can vary from a couple of days to even a couple of weeks in the specific case of A3, so, if you don't respect this "adjustment period" when you mag-swap, you'll get a false impression of the p'up's tone at every attempt. Unfortunately, I don't have the science to back this statement up, as the instruments needed to measure this belong to a hi-level professional lab, something I simply can't afford, however, I can say this phenomenon is very real and that I've personally verified the occurrence at every swap performed.

Have fun!

HTH,

 

[posite63]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

I appreciate your advise and nuggets of wisdom. I can see why this hobby is addictive.

In my research before this evening's operation, the consensus was that the screw coil was the dominant coil in most cases. I assumed that I would simply pick which pickup's tone I wanted to be dominant and use that as the screw coil (applies to bridge and neck). So the point you raise is intriguing. I did end up with two hybrid pickups, so I'll have to experiment with the hot slugs in the bridge.

I had heard about the time it takes the magnets to adjust. I've got an A8 in the one I just finished, and I'll try an A5 in the other. But like I said above, my first test of the hybrid was a magnificent combination of the qualities of both pickups. Now you've got me worried that it's going to "settle" and end up significantly different than what it sounded like tonight.

 

[Studioplayer]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

When you make "hybrids", rule-of-thumb is the following: to use the highest reading slug coil for the bridge position and the highest reading screw coil for the neck position on a 22-and/or a 24-fretter. The opposite applies for the neck position on a 20-fretter, usually a Jazz box.

As you're a newbie mag-swapper, I'd like to put emphasis in this either little known or plainly ignored factor: when you mag-swap a p'up, ANY p'up, depending on the Alnico grade used, there IS a time period where the new magnet "needs" to establish and stabilize the new magnetic field and projection, which can vary from a couple of days to even a couple of weeks in the specific case of A3, so, if you don't respect this "adjustment period" when you mag-swap, you'll get a false impression of the p'up's tone at every attempt. Unfortunately, I don't have the science to back this statement up, as the instruments needed to measure this belong to a hi-level professional lab, something I simply can't afford, however, I can say this phenomenon is very real and that I've personally verified the occurrence at every swap performed.


Have fun!

HTH,

Excellent! I wonder how many "swappers" know this aspect of swapping various magnet types.

Lieutenant, would this concept of "adjustment" period also pertain to new pickups as they "mature" in
a given guitar? I have a 6-year old Gibson Studio Deluxe with the 490R/Burstbucker V set. I swear that these pickups have matured in that time; just through the constant playing. The guitar seems to exhibit smoother tone in that time and I don't know if its due to the pickups, wood, or just the way I
choose what to play on it.


Studioplayer

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

In this case, what you're hearing is the instrument as a whole "breaking-in".

P'ups are just one variable in a very complex equation.

HTH,

 

[Mincer]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

I think it is more of a a case of your ears getting used to the new sound. I don't think pickups themselves 'mature' unless you are talking decades.

 

[posite63]

Re: Does a magnet swap change the "voice" of a pickup?

An update on my magnet swapping. Again, mostly cataloging this for future modders experimenting with cheaper models.

Last time I posted, over a year ago, my solution was to make a hybrid with the Duncan Designed HB 102 and HB 103 bridge pups, and install an A8. I did this on 4 guitars, and was generally happy with the results. Now, after putting plenty of hours on each of these guitars, I decided to try some further modifications to refine the tone. I still stand by the coil swapping, it makes for a well rounded rock/metal pickup and captures the qualities of each. However, I had grown to dislike some of the characteristics of the A8. It's aggressive for sure, but has this nasally quality that I couldn't dial out. The bottom end was also slightly rolled off, for lack of a better term. Still having a hard time finding the best way to describe it, but the "voice" was just getting annoying. The whole situation was kinda like meeting a person with whom you hit it off with real well and become instant friends, but over time realize that they've got some serious quirks, and you decide to stop hanging out with them altogether after a while.

Anyway, I had been disassembling some cheap-o pickups and had a couple thick ceramics collecting dust and loose screws and steel wool shavings. I decided to throw one in a guitar that is basswood and downtuned to A. I was VERY pleasantly surprised with the improvement. Tighter lows, mids were decreased tastefully, and the highs where not overly shrill. So I performed the same proceedure on my guitar tuned to A#, which is mahogany. Again, very good results, albeit slightly different. So now I've got a growing stack of A8s that won't be used, as I plan to phase them all out over the coming months.

On a side note, I freaking LOVE the HB 103 Neck with some different magnets in it. Thanks for the suggestion Lt Kojak.

TL;DR
Swapped a double-thick ceramic in to my Duncan Designed HB 102/103 hybrid (replaced an A8). Happy with the results.