Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

[tonaholic]

Howdy,

Have you guys ever seen the experiment where people are given what they are told is cheap wine and steak with cheap looking labels and presentation, hate it and then fed what they are told much nicer wine and steak with high shelf label designs and presentation etc and love it but it was a double blind test with the food actually being EXACTLY THE SAME? Back to back, same sitting, massive perception difference.

While the Duncan 59's in a Les Paul are killer... it seems there are perceived "better" options. Is this a bit like the wine market, perhaps? Do they have legitimate reasons they are better or is it like the wine double blind where a more expensive label and presentation make the perceived experience better?

Can anyone speak to the quality of the Duncan PAF style designs vs the "boutique"? It sounds like Duncan has the "magic old Gibson PAF winding machines" that companies like Throbak and PRS are touting as their "secret sauce" for the perfect PAF tone. Does duncan use vintage accurate bobbins? It sounds like the wire, winding machines and a few other details are all there in the stock Duncan 59 and we can just throw in our favorite magnet for personalized flavor?

Do Throbak, WCF, Wolfetone, Sheptone, Holmes and others I'm surely forgetting have construction details that production Duncans are missing or is it more in the "secret sauce" of the pixie dust they sprinkle on their wind design?

For example: The Fralin Pure Paf is very much a clean, low output, potted PAF with an Alnico 4. Would the A2P or 59 with A4 mags get really damn close to his special sound with perhaps a slightly different wind pattern designed by Duncan's ears instead of Fralin's and that's the only major difference?

 

[metalmachine]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I've had hand wound pups. I personally only see them as different not better. Duncans are top notch

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Once you get to the quality of SD pickups, there is no such thing as "better". Only different.

 

[Sigma.xiria]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I agree with the posts above me. I have used SD, Dimarzio, Bare Knuckle and the new PRS 57/08s and 59/09s...

For me and my ear, I get everything I can from these $150+ pickups in an $80 or so Duncan...

I eat a Vietnamese dish called "Pho" all the time and I go to this place that is small and cheap. The biggest size is like $7.00 and is the best I have had yet. I have also been to a very fancy Pho restaurant where a medium was around $12.00 and it was not very good.

In other words, use your senses to decide what is right for you

Yep.... I ramble a lot...

 

[Jocelyn]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I agree with the posts above me. I have used SD, Dimarzio, Bare Knuckle and the new PRS 57/08s and 59/09s...

For me and my ear, I get everything I can from these $150+ pickups in an $80 or so Duncan...

I eat a Vietnamese dish called "Pho" all the time and I go to this place that is small and cheap. The biggest size is like $7.00 and is the best I have had yet. I have also been to a very fancy Pho restaurant where a medium was around $12.00 and it was not very good.

In other words, use your senses to decide what is right for you

Yep.... I ramble a lot...

I like the way you put it. I use the same yard stick when I eat out. Many places charge more and give all Yada yada, and in the end I find my good old small restaurant is the best for me. Same goes for my guitars and gear.
Well I have no doubt there are plenty of great stuff out there. But First and foremost they need to be affordable. I am happy with my Duncan pups they are way better then the stocks. I am not a rich guy, I honestly dot have the money to go buy something expensive and then find it does not work with me. Yes and I am sure there is again Plenty of stuff out there that is Expensive but rubbish all marketing tricks and BS.

 

[Sigma.xiria]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I like the way you put it. I use the same yard stick when I eat out. Many places charge more and give all Yada yada, and in the end I find my good old small restaurant is the best for me. Same goes for my guitars and gear.
Well I have no doubt there are plenty of great stuff out there. But First and foremost they need to be affordable. I am happy with my Duncan pups they are way better then the stocks. I am not a rich guy, I honestly dot have the money to go buy something expensive and then find it does not work with me. Yes and I am sure there is again Plenty of stuff out there that is Expensive but rubbish all marketing tricks and BS.

Haha! Thanks

I am not a rich man either and I worked hard to afford my musical equipment... So, for me, tone to dollar ratio is a big factor (probably some crazy equation that exists in my head haha) and Duncan hit the nail on the head... woooo!

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Agree. Especially in these economic times, "bang-for-the-buck" is important.

"You get what you pay for"? ..... Not always. But generally, once you get over a certain price point I find that it becomes only a matter of personal preference since they are all very good quality. You let your tongue tell you which food you like, and you let your ears tell you which pups you like...irregardless of cost beyond that point.

 

[Impulse 101]

Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I have Suhr pups in three guitars, I love them and they are my favorites as of the last five years or so but I still have plenty of Duncan loaded guitars and I like them a lot too. There's room on the stable for a little of everything.

One thing holds true, I've never doubted Duncan's quality. Their stuff has been rock solid for me in many guitars over the last thirty years or so.

On the end It still comes down to tone, I prefer ssl5's to many of the offerings from the boutique guys and the JB is the SM58 of the humbucking pickup world, you'll never be fired for using one. That's a pretty good track record for any manufacturer, boutique or not.

 

[richard parker]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

My JB equipped SG was my number one for many, many years. I always considered the JB to be one of my most significant musical purchases. 2 years ago curiosity got the better of me and I got a set of Bareknuckles for a different guitar. This is my current number one. I love the BKs and am so glad I took the chance.

SD make great pickups but it makes sense to try other manufacturer's products. You wouldn't confine yourself to trying guitars or amps from only one maker. Not necessarily better but different.

One thing to bear in mind about how humbuckers are made - many of the smaller builders (including BK) scatterwind their humbuckers. SD does not believe in scatterwinding buckers. There is a real difference in sound. Whether you like it is a matter of taste but you'll never know until you try and this means trying something other than SD.

I'm very happy with my sound these days but one day I hope to try some pickups from Zhang. I've got a feeling that I would love them. And sometimes you have to go with a gut feeling.

 

[Sigma.xiria]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

My JB equipped SG was my number one for many, many years. I always considered the JB to be one of my most significant musical purchases. 2 years ago curiosity got the better of me and I got a set of Bareknuckles for a different guitar. This is my current number one. I love the BKs and am so glad I took the chance.

SD make great pickups but it makes sense to try other manufacturer's products. You wouldn't confine yourself to trying guitars or amps from only one maker. Not necessarily better but different.

One thing to bear in mind about how humbuckers are made - many of the smaller builders (including BK) scatterwind their humbuckers. SD does not believe in scatterwinding buckers. There is a real difference in sound. Whether you like it is a matter of taste but you'll never know until you try and this means trying something other than SD.

I'm very happy with my sound these days but one day I hope to try some pickups from Zhang. I've got a feeling that I would love them. And sometimes you have to go with a gut feeling.

+1000012346639919276611

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

+1000012346639919276611

I think that's alot.

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

My #1 has a stock JB/Jazz set. My #3 has SD custom shop rebuilds. My #2 has handwound Zhangbuckers. I like all three guitars.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I can easily tell the boutique PAFs I like blind, I do that with all pickups.

However, I have or had a number of boutique PAFs that were not special at all.

 

[SFW]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I've played just about every pickup maker out there. I always keep coming back to Duncans.

 

[tonaholic]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Thanks for all the responses everybody. Yeah, in addition to all of your responses, I did quite a bit of research into what makes pickups "special" and it seems that SD has it all covered. The only thing they don't do that someone might be looking for is "mismatched coils" but the hybrids made by the users here might be as good as or better than most of the other coil mismatches out there for quite a bit less.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Mismatched coils? Right here. http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/custom-shop/humbuckers/brobucker/

 

[ErikH]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Here's the thing, PAF's come in all sorts of different winds, output levels, magnets and the like. A "PAF" (patent applied for) is a style of pickup, most often referred to those early humbuckers from the 50's and 60's. Thing is, the consistency was all over the place. One day may result in some of the sweetest sounding PAF's ever wound and the next may be all turds, done by the same people using the same materials. Maybe the weather was crazy that day. Quality control wasn't as tight as it is today. Wind it til the bobbin is fill then wire it up. (you probably know all of this already)

Today, number of turns, type of wire, magnet strength, bobbin material, base plate material, all of that is thought about. Is one winder right and everyone else wrong? Of course not. Each one has their own "flavor" of PAF based on examples they have or have heard. Seymour makes some of the best out there. Do I like them all? Honestly, no. There's other I'd prefer, and that's cool. But I will say, the construction quality of SD pickups, PAF or not, is top notch. If there's a problem, you'll be taken care of.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

SD doesn't cut corners. You are getting a top quality product by any definition. Whether that pickup is better or worse than a competing product depends on the guitar and your specific taste in tone.

 

[tonaholic]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Here's the thing, PAF's come in all sorts of different winds, output levels, magnets and the like. A "PAF" (patent applied for) is a style of pickup, most often referred to those early humbuckers from the 50's and 60's. Thing is, the consistency was all over the place. One day may result in some of the sweetest sounding PAF's ever wound and the next may be all turds, done by the same people using the same materials. Maybe the weather was crazy that day. Quality control wasn't as tight as it is today. Wind it til the bobbin is fill then wire it up. (you probably know all of this already)

Today, number of turns, type of wire, magnet strength, bobbin material, base plate material, all of that is thought about. Is one winder right and everyone else wrong? Of course not. Each one has their own "flavor" of PAF based on examples they have or have heard. Seymour makes some of the best out there. Do I like them all? Honestly, no. There's other I'd prefer, and that's cool. But I will say, the construction quality of SD pickups, PAF or not, is top notch. If there's a problem, you'll be taken care of.

You are absolutely correct. It seemed that there were 2 schools of "PAF Replica" I found. The first is the builders who make them based on specs. Something like the Seth Lovers or a variation in that, they are what the PAF was intended to be without the variation. Then there's the replica, where someone has gotten ahold of an ideal vintage set and figured out what makes that particular set so special. The Pearly Gates, 59 (i understand they're a replica of one of the first good PAF sets that SD owned) and especially Joe Bonamassa come to mind.

After doing way too much reading, talking to informed folks and watching various factory tours on Youtube, I'm definitely convinced that Duncan builds them as well as anyone but some custom builders might offer a specific sound that you can't get off the shelf. Not better, but different. For example, some people like scatterwound 'buckers. It's not vintage accurate but probably gives a different sound that some prefer for their personal timbre and what not.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Here's my take on it: when it comes to choice of materials, build quality, and the experience of the craftsmen who are actually doing the work, the regular Seymour Duncan product is second to none. Period. You can compare SD Production Floor pickups to [fill in the blank with the cork-sniffiest boutique pickup builder] and SDs will be at least as good and in most cases better. Did I just say "better?" I did. And here's why.

When it comes to the materials that go into most boutique pickups, they are rarely tooled by the builder or their local machine shop. I'm talking about bobbins, covers, bottom plates, metal spacers, etc. So where do they get them from? The big parts houses. Where do the big parts houses get them from? The same folks who supply the big Asian pickup builders.

Now just because the components come from Asia, doesn't mean they're bad. Hell, I'd put Duncan Designed pickups up against a lot of USA-made (non-SD) pickups and they'll come out on top. But I guarantee that whatever draftsman drew the spec drawings for those mass-produced bobbins and covers and whatnot did not have the guitar-specific experience of Seymour and Kevin Beller. And you can see it. Check out an old PAF and compare it to the boutique versions. Often times you'll see little differences in things like a corner radius, or a tooling mark, or a surface finish, or a substrate, or a plating material, or a material choice, or a dimension. And often times you'll see those same components used on several different boutique brands--because they're buying their components from the same parts supply companies.

Seymour Duncan tools their own bobbins, covers, bottom plates, spacers, etc. etc. In most cases, for their vintage pickups, they'll use the exact same materials as the originals. (Sometimes they'll make compromises for modern production, like using polycarbonate bobbins on the '59 so it can be wax potted. But if you want butyrate bobbins, there are three PAF models that offer that).

And a note about plain enamel wire. There is lots of magnet wire that's passed off to pickup winders as plain enamel by some of the big wire manufacturers. And it's not. It's easy to tell if it's real plain enamel. If a hot soldering iron melts off the insulation, it's not plain enamel, even if it has the characteristic chocolately brown color. If you need to scrape off the insulation so you can solder to the wire, then it's likely the real deal. If you ever see any photos or videos of the Leesona in action (whether they're shot by SD staffers or factory visitors), notice that the winder always scrapes off the insulation.

Now before you go off on me for dissing [fill in the blank with the boutique pickup builder who you just shelled out major coin to], keep in mind that I'm not calling out any specific companies or pickup builders here. There are a lot of fine vintage pickups built by winders who have the same appreciation for vintage that Kevin and Seymour have. Well, maybe not a lot. But there are some. I'm pretty sure.

The reason for this diatribe is really to draw attention to the components that go into pickups. Remember, each part of the pickup is part of the tone chain. And some guitar players are paying their hard earned money to pickup builders who are purchasing their components from the big parts houses. That's all.