Duncan Designed.........Trash or Treasure!?!?!?

[UnderTheFlame83]

Duncan Designed pickups are great. The Detonators are my favourite.

 

[JMP/HBE]

junk in my experience.

 

[skyydogg01]

And its working. I'm going to stick it into my little Rockmaster today, and remind myself of what it is.

How's it working out for you?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[GuitarStv]

The Duncan designed vintage J-Bass pickups that came in my Squire VM are decent pickups.

 

[Masta' C]

Artie, your version was produced for the Squier Vintage Modified HSS Strat around 2010. As Skydogg01 mentioned, it's the same pickup that was originally used in the earlier Ibanez SZ 5XX/7XX series and is based on the HB-103. The main difference between yours and the Ibanez version is that the hex pole pieces are black on yours and a slightly different length than the Ibanez hex poles.

I got my hands on a few as leftover stock from Fender and ended up selling that majority of them to forum bros back in like 2011. I sold a few that were stock and one that I had swapped in an A8 mag (sold to Dominus), but never used. If you possibly bought it from him, take a look at the mag...if it's shiny, it's the A8 modded one I did.

junk in my experience.

Pretty sure you just copy and paste this same response in every post LOL!

 

[Artie]

Artie, your version was produced for the Squier Vintage Modified HSS Strat around 2010. As Skydogg01 mentioned, it's the same pickup that was originally used in the earlier Ibanez SZ 5XX/7XX series and is based on the HB-103. The main difference between yours and the Ibanez version is that the hex pole pieces are black on yours and a slightly different length than the Ibanez hex poles.

I got my hands on a few as leftover stock from Fender and ended up selling that majority of them to forum bros back in like 2011. I sold a few that were stock and one that I had swapped in an A8 mag (sold to Dominus), but never used. If you possibly bought it from him, take a look at the mag...if it's shiny, it's the A8 modded one I did.

I know I bought it from someone in the forum. It might have been you.

I'll try to install it and listen to it. But Christmas stuff is in the way. In a good way.

Oh yeah, as a foot note. My DD 59's, in my Daisy Rock (Schecter) Champaign Sparkle axe . . . is a match made in heaven. Sweet, clean, perfect.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Anybody know what kind of Duncan Design humbucker is in the guitar I posted about back in Reply #19?

 

[beaubrummels]

Anybody know what kind of Duncan Design humbucker is in the guitar I posted about back in Reply #19?

Doesn't seem to be specific info online. If you have the guitar in hand, the easiest way is loosen the strings, pull the humbucker out of the route and flip it over to get the number off the sticker. Then someone here can tell you what it's Duncan equivalent is. (E.g. HB101 is a 59, HB103 is a Distortion)

 

[Masta' C]

Anybody know what kind of Duncan Design humbucker is in the guitar I posted about back in Reply #19?

There's no info out there about that pickup specifically. Even the Squier spec sheet for that model just says "Duncan Designed". Likely an HB-101 ('59) or HB-102 (JB), but I find it interesting that they specify "Alnico" for the singles, yet don't mention if the bridge is also Alnico-based or not.

Since you have the guitar, it seems logical to just take a look yourself and let US know!

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Doesn't seem to be specific info online. If you have the guitar in hand, the easiest way is loosen the strings, pull the humbucker out of the route and flip it over to get the number off the sticker. Then someone here can tell you what it's Duncan equivalent is. (E.g. HB101 is a 59, HB103 is a Distortion)

Finally got around to checking out the underside of this Bridge HB.

Sticker reads HB102B. See attached pic This web article says a 102 is like a JB. Is that accurate? https://web.archive.org/web/2020021...com/blog/product-news/duncan-designed-pickups

And regarding how I reported previously that Position 2 sounded Out Of Phase on this guitar: looking in the control cavity I found that the Green (South Start) wire was wired as Hot, and Black (North Start) was wired as Ground. So yep, the pup is wired in reverse. And, I saw that there is no auto-split arrangement in Position 2, so it featurea the full humbucker plus middle pup. I am about to rectify that as well.

Will report back how Position 2 sounds after the rewire.

 

[beaubrummels]

I believe the last two numbers follow the Duncan numbering, so HB101 = SH1, HB102 = SH2, HB104 = SH4, etc.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

I found the attached pictures online. Seems the #s apply to the set, not just a single pickup. So there ia a 102 Neck and a 102 Bridge. And a 103 neck and 103 bridge. The article i posted earlier decribed the 102 Bridge as based on a JB and the 102 Neck as based on a Jazz Neck.

I did the wiring changes I described earlier and that fixed the Out Of Phase issue in Position 2. I also repurposed the 5 Way Switch's 2nd pole to provide an autosplit in Position 2. I moved the tone control wires from Pole 2 to Pole 1, so that now the Tone 1 is active for Position 5 and 4, and Tone 2 ia active for Position 1 and 2.

Tonewise after the wiring changes, Position 2 sounds great to me, which is one of my favorite sounds on a Strat. And I was worried Position 3 might spond shrill without any tone control, but it seems fine. Sounds very good actually.
Position 4 and 5 seems a little to boomy, so I'll try lowering the bass side of the Neck and Middle pups, and if that doesn't resolve the issue, i'll convert Tone 1 to a Bass Cut control for the Neck pup (and Tone 2 to a Master Tone).

The Bridge pup sounds hot, and at first it was giving off too much low end content when the Low E was played, plus sounding too thick overall with distortion, but this seemed to resolve after I lowered
the bass side of the pup. After tweaking the eq on the amp and distortion pedal, i got it sounding pretty good. Although It has a slight shrillness in its overall tone profile that may wear thin on me, hopefully I will be able to figure out how to EQ it out or tame it.

 

[Lewguitar]

I'm curious. What about them makes them cheap besides cheaper labor? And what about them makes them not sound quite as good as a USA made Duncan?

Cheaper copper wire with thicker insulation to form the coils?

Cheaper magnets? No alnico? Or an inferior alnico? Ceramic only?

I have three PRS SE Singlecuts that came with Korean made PRS humbuckers.

I did a lot of experiemnting with replacing the magnets with different types of alnico from AddictionFX, and was able to make them sound a lot better.

But I could never get them to sound as good as the USA made Duncan 59's, Seth Lovers and Antiquitys that I eventually put in them.

I always wondered why I couldn't get them to at least sound as good as a Duncan 59.

 

[Artie]

I'm curious. What about them makes them cheap besides cheaper labor? And what about them makes them not sound quite as good as a USA made Duncan?

Given the cost of living in Seoul vs Santa Barbara, I'm not so sure it's "cheap" labor.

 

[Mincer]

Well, I'd assume it is a combination of parts & labor which makes it cheaper. It works the same with guitars/amp/pedals. Those made in the Far East generally are cheaper than those built in the US. You can get lucky and stumble upon a gem in there, just like there are plenty of USA companies that put out dogs now and then.

 

[Lewguitar]

But what is it about them that keeps them from sounding as good as a USA made Duncan of the same model?

 

[Mincer]

Some people think they do. I haven't tried enough to know if they do or not. They are made with cheaper materials and labor, but in the end, that doesn't mean it is worse than any other pickup.

 

[Ace Flibble]

But what is it about them that keeps them from sounding as good as a USA made Duncan of the same model?

Your tastes and, to a far lesser degree, manufacturing tolerances.

There's no magic pixie dust or secret sauce that someone in America can put into a pickup that a factory in Korea or China can't also get. In fact you'll find the vast, vast majority of parts that are used to create 'American-made' guitar products are first manufactured in China/Indonesia/Vietnam/etc anyway, so regardless of where a particular product was assembled the core components are all the same. (Outside of some minor and not audio-influencing technical variations, e.g. metric threading in a Chinese product and imperial threading in an American one.)

The big difference in how Chinese or Korean pickups sound compared to American brands or boutique winds is not down to different components or quality per se, but the recipes each use and how tight the tolerances are to match those recipes, and therefore the sounds they end up with. And which recipes sound best to you is entirely personal.

If you spec out a humbucker to have two coils wound to precisely 4.1k each with .42AWG wire with a 62x12.5x3mm AlNiCo 5 magnet, that pickup will sound the same no matter if it's pieced together by a lady in the US or a guy in China as long as the finished pickup does indeed meet those specifications exactly. It's simple physics; if the magnet is the same and the wire is the same, the end result is the same. But if the lady in the US is taking an afternoon to make the one pickup and is required to take the time to check both coils really are wound to precisely 4.1k, while the guy in China is tasked with churning out ten pickups in the same time and is told he doesn't need to verify every coil wind is precise as long as it's roughly in the right ballpark and he's keeping the production line going, well now you're going to start to get different sounds.
Most people are familiar with how original P.A.F. humbuckers vary so much, for this same exact reason. Loose tolerances mean you'll get pickups straying far from the intended spec, and if you're expecting one sound but you receive something different, you'll probably interpret that difference as being worse since it's not what you were hoping for. Rarely do we receive something that is different than we expected or required and prefer it.

And those expectations or requirements are what mostly define which pickups we perceive as good or bad, even beyond manufacturing tolerances. If you pick up an ES-335 and expect to get a blues or jazz sound from it, but the pickups installed are actually a set of SD Distortions, you'll probably perceive those pickups as being 'bad'. If you replace those SDs with a set of Chinese underwound A2 humbuckers you'll probably perceive those cheaper pickups as being 'better', even though we know that, objectively, there is no actual difference in the mechanical quality of the pickup. It's just that the cheap PAF-clones are more suitable for your requirements and expectations than the more expensive (but inappropriate) metal machines.

To that end, other than the obvious wage disparity, the main thing you're paying for when you buy a Seymour Duncan, DiMarzio, EMG, or other higher-end pickup (let alone boutique pickups) is the time the company put into R&D for that particular design. Seymour Duncan might spend a year or two refining a new pickup recipe, while a factory in Korea might ballpark it on paper, make one prototype to confirm it's roughly in the right area, and head into mass production ASAP. That doesn't actually mean the cheaper design is 'worse'—again, the mechanical quality is likely to be identical—just that since less thought and time has been put into the design it is harder to make it suit a specific requirement. It might still sound great for someone's particular needs—'stopped clock' and all that—but it'll be harder for that person to find the pickup because nailing down what the pickup sounds like is harder when the creators weren't paying as much attention to the sound to begin with. Meanwhile Seymour Duncan can very precisely market their pickup for a particular sound, since they've refined it for a specific purpose, and so people who want that sound will have an easier time finding the SD pickup.
This is why the cheaper companies who have spent a good bit of time on their advertising, like Irongear and Tonerider, enjoy positive reputations even though their pickups are made in the same factories as many other Chinese/Korean pickups. Because those companies have taken a little more care to work out what their design sounds like they are able to inform the public better, so people make more informed purchases and therefore are more likely to end up with a pickup that suits their needs, giving the impression that the product is technically superior. (Except, as we've established, it isn't.)

Really, people need to stop thinking of and reporting on pickups as being "bad" or "good", regardless of price and country of origin, unless of course there is an actual fundamental mechanical fault with a pickup. (Which even among the most cheaply mass-produced pickups has become extremely rare.) Outside of actual faulty products, there's no such thing as a "good" or "bad" pickup, only appropriate or inappropriate pickups. The most finely-crafted, most-expensive boutique pickup in the world might be called "bad" if it was made for one sound but tested by someone hoping for another. If someone wants a heavy metal pickup then no PAF clone, no matter what country it came from or the price, is going to sound good to them.

It's the same with any guitar, pedal or amp, too. The Gibson Custom Shop can craft a phenomenal guitar, but if you like a snappy, light tone then you'd probably think a Squier Strat is better. Line 6 Spiders aren't celebrated for their sound, but if you're a goth rock player, would you really think a '62 Bluesbreaker was better? Any product can seem 'bad' when it's used for a purpose it's not designed for by a person who wants something different and similarly any product can seem 'good' when it's used by the right person for the appropriate task.


When it comes to Duncan Designed, specifically, I am reminded of Shaun Morgan of Seether. For years he used the HB-102—the DD version of the JB—in many guitars, including his signature Schecter models, long after he could have easily afforded (or likely just been given) 'real' JBs. It was something that seemed to confuse a lot of people on the old SD forums for quite a while; why would someone who could obviously easily get the 'proper' pickup keep insisting on using the 'worse' version? Eventually some guitar magazine did a rig tour with him and he explained why he kept using the Duncan Designed instead of an actual JB: the DD version has a slightly higher output and is less cutting, so since he mostly plays high-gain rhythm it is more suitable for him than an actual JB. It wasn't that either the JB or HB-102 was 'better' than the other, it's just that one was more appropriate for his playing and that just-so-happened to be the cheaper of the two.
For the record, I agree with him; I also predominantly play rhythm and I much prefer the HB-102 to the JB. But if you're a lead player you'll likely think the JB is the 'better' of the two. It's not actually a matter of the Duncan Designed being better or worse than the 'real' Seymour Duncan, just that one recipe fits one purpose more appropriately while the other configuration is better suited to another application.

 

[Artie]

Seymour Duncan might spend a year or two refining a new pickup recipe, while a factory in Korea might ballpark it on paper . . .

I might take that a step farther, and say: The Korean versions are made from the Duncan specs, so they get the benefit of that year long R&D.

 

[Ace Flibble]

^^ With the Duncan Designed line that is certainly the case, by all accounts those pickup recipes were fully developed by the 'proper' American part of Seymour Duncan.
Of course there are also a lot of cheap manufacturers who simply rip-off popular, proven designs, bypassing the need to develop a design themselves.