Duncan Designed.........Trash or Treasure!?!?!?

I believe the last two numbers follow the Duncan numbering, so HB101 = SH1, HB102 = SH2, HB104 = SH4, etc.

Not exactly. Yes, the HB101n/b = '59 set (SH-1n/b) and the HB102n = Jazz neck (SH-2n), but the HB102b = JB (SH-4b).

The HB103 set is based on the Distortion set with standard thickness ceramic mags, so the "3" doesn't correspond to anything in the USA lineup (SH-3 is the Stag Mag).

HB104 is a ceramic-based, dual-rail pickup found primarily on early-2000s Jacksons. Nothing like a JB.
 
Of course there are also a lot of cheap manufacturers who simply rip-off popular, proven designs, bypassing the need to develop a design themselves.

So true. I actually bought a Chinese "Hotrails" just to check it out. ($7, I think.) But I've never installed it yet. My labor is worth more than the pup. :D
 
Hi, i've had a guitar loader with hb102/103.

They are decent pickups but in my opinion regular duncans are way better.

Designed tend to be a bit muddy on high distorsion.
 
Hi, i've had a guitar loader with hb102/103.

They are decent pickups but in my opinion regular duncans are way better.

Designed tend to be a bit muddy on high distorsion.

Hey Down,

Is your forum name inspired by the sludge/doom band with the same name? I am a big fan of that band.
 

Awesome sauce. You might enjoy 2 of the gear-rundown pics attached for Pepper and Kirk. And you may or may not enjoy the 3rd pic which is a guitar in my collection that i fitted a Down sticker to. Lol
 

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I have been making pickups for a little bit now, and I can tell you there is no real magic sauce for making them. The sound of the pickup is a sum of all parts sort of thing. If the China pickup is made with plastic bobbins and the USA model is made with phenolic material, but otherwise, the two pickups are identical, they will sound different because they are NOT actually identical. If a pickup in China is potted differently, uses a slightly different wire coating et all, it will sound different to another pickup that is made differently. Plain and simple.

A huge factor for measuring the DCR is what the temperature is when you measure it. Even measuring the pickup before and after installing the hookup wire can cause a small change in the DCR reading. I have found that the DCR changes a small amount before and after potting the pickup, even if the temperature of the coil is the same when you measure it. How taught the winding is when it is wrapped on the coil can drastically change the DCR reading. Most pickups are wrapped to a winds count, NOT DCR. If you have a tighter wind for 8000 wraps, you will have a higher DCR than you will with a loose wind of the same amount. This is why machines are used to make pickups, consistency. The pickup is made to the desired spec and then the protocol is set for how to replicate it en mass. The Factory then develops a tolerance for the QC of the product.

What makes Abigail Ybarra and Maricela Jurezso unique in their skill is that they have a touch, or feel to them when they make pickups. When they make a pickup, their talent is portrayed in the outcome, a result that can't be replicated by a machine. This is why handmade ( actually wrapped by a human ) pickups I think sound better than a machine. The uniformity of a machine even if it programmed to be non-uniform, just doesn't have that human touch. The variance in tension and wrapping of the coils gives the pickup a flavor. Abigail and Maricela have something that most humans don't have though, that touch and consistency that has made them the most recognized names in the pickup industry. They wrap better than you, I, and many others, especially machines, ever could.

If you were to make pickups, it would have its own thing going for it too. The only major difference between you and Abigail per se is that if you both had to make 100 pickups that were within X tolerances, She would not only do it faster, but with more consistency than you or I could. Her pickups would sound more alike than you or I's would. I'm currently at a point where I can wrap a pickup and be within a couple of tenths of Ohm's resistance from my goal. I.E. If I am shooting for 6k, I can get to 5.8k on my first shot. This is close enough that if the temperature was 65* when I measured it, at 75* it may very well be higher than 6k. As to the consistency of sound from set to set, I can't say yet. I haven't made 100 of the same pickup yet. What I can say is that if I want a fatter, thinner, clearer, or ballsier pickup, I can achieve that. I can also vary the wind enough between N, M, and B to have a semi-consistent volume and sound character between each position. In short, I believe I can get a better result than most factory pickups, but I have a ways to go before I can say I have consistency and speed of construction nailed. I think any hand-wound pickup made by anyone, can beat the quality of sound that is produced by a machine-made pickup.

So with regards to the Duncan Designed models, it is simply a cost-saving measure to outsource the labor to China and have machines make them en mass. They are still made to a very high standard, but the pickup is made so it is not exactly like anything else that is offered. This helps keep direct comparisons and biases out of the way. Designed to be like a JB, Distortion, or Destroyer, whatever it may be is irrelevant. It is not made like them but is made to have a comparable sound given its construction.
 
The strange thing about Duncan Designed is that they don't look like they were designed by Seymour Duncan. Take the SC101 for example, they wrap the single coil in copper tape, and then wind the middle and neck unusually hot, and give them flat pole pieces. It's nothing like any of their domestic offerings, and that just seems unusual that they would deem one design patters suitable for their domestic lineup, then go into left field for their imports.

Then there are the Vintage Modified series, where they glue the covers onto the pickups, and wind the bridge pickup hot, like SSL-4's, which I think most would agree is not vintage at all, well beyond "modified". And yet these are specs you see with cheapo import pickups, such as the ones on Amazon under the "LYTC" or "ORIPURE" brand names. I get the strong sense that they're developed entirely overseas and then merely licensed with Seymour Duncan branding.

That being said, they're fine pickups if you look past how un-Duncan like they are.
 
I have been making pickups for a little bit now, and I can tell you there is no real magic sauce for making them. The sound of the pickup is a sum of all parts sort of thing.

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I think "Sum of the parts" is a little too simplistic. Your DCR example is a good example of an "Interaction" where multiple factors are actually at play simultaneously. Really understanding those and how to work them may be the magic. Interaction between the parts may be a better statement. But I liked your post overall.
 
The strange thing about Duncan Designed is that they don't look like they were designed by Seymour Duncan. Take the SC101 for example, It's nothing like any of their domestic offerings,

Because Sales of Domestic offering. Duh.

You realize a ton of SD pickups are not designed by Seymour.
 


I think "Sum of the parts" is a little too simplistic. Your DCR example is a good example of an "Interaction" where multiple factors are actually at play simultaneously. Really understanding those and how to work them may be the magic. Interaction between the parts may be a better statement. But I liked your post overall.

I agree that " sum of all parts " leaves nothing on the table, but let's consider that there is really nothing new to anything being done these days. EVERYONE is trying to sell a " Vintage " pickup sound. How do they make it? They use the same crap that was used in a vintage pickup and call it a day. The marketing jargon is total BS. We use a special wire made especially for us and is formulated to be exactly like the stuff from the 50s... BullCrap. We use a special magnet blend with a proprietary wind that does X, Y, and Z..... All BullCrap. They all buy the wire from the same places you and I can, they get magnets and slugs from all the same places and most use some sort of machine to wind their pickups. Those that actually hand-wind are still using the same stuff you and I can get.

If you choose X magnet in X pickup style, there are perhaps only 3 different wires that 99.99% will wrap them with. If you are designing a pickup that is truly a " new " design, you are probably far enough along that you know what wire, what magnet, what bobbin depth, and how many winds it will take to achieve a core set of goals. While the true artisans will go for the exact gauss, Henries, and DCR that they desire, in the end, it is X wire, Y bobbin depth, and Z number of winds to achieve X DCR. Assuming you can wind it exactly the same every time, it will sound the way it was meant to. This is why I say the big X factor in winding a pickup is the touch that a hand winder has. If you and I both wind the exact same pickup design to the exact same DCR ( everything else is irrelevant ), they WILL sound different. For no other reason than you wind it one way, I wind it another.

As a sound engineer of 17 years, I have a saying to describe what makes a good sound engineer. " A good sound engineer is on that can make 7 out of 10 people in the room happy, the other three can go F*&$k themselves.... ". I think it is sort of the same for pickups. You can't make everyone happy, so how you wind a pickup and how I wind a pickup becomes part of the " sum of all parts " explanation I have. If you can get 7 out of 10 people to like your work, then the other three people don't matter. Not everyone likes SD, just like not everyone likes Dimarzio. They both make great pickups, have lots of options, and many of their products are probably closer in sound to one another than we would like to believe. I guess my major point was that the formula for how to make a pickup sound a certain way is not sorcery and magic, the sum of all those little factors creates an end result. If you can repeat that result, then all the hard work has been done.
 
I agree that " sum of all parts " leaves nothing on the table, but let's consider that there is really nothing new to anything being done these days. EVERYONE is trying to sell a " Vintage " pickup sound. How do they make it? They use the same crap that was used in a vintage pickup and call it a day. The marketing jargon is total BS. We use a special wire made especially for us and is formulated to be exactly like the stuff from the 50s... BullCrap. We use a special magnet blend with a proprietary wind that does X, Y, and Z..... All BullCrap. They all buy the wire from the same places you and I can, they get magnets and slugs from all the same places and most use some sort of machine to wind their pickups. Those that actually hand-wind are still using the same stuff you and I can get.

If you choose X magnet in X pickup style, there are perhaps only 3 different wires that 99.99% will wrap them with. If you are designing a pickup that is truly a " new " design, you are probably far enough along that you know what wire, what magnet, what bobbin depth, and how many winds it will take to achieve a core set of goals. While the true artisans will go for the exact gauss, Henries, and DCR that they desire, in the end, it is X wire, Y bobbin depth, and Z number of winds to achieve X DCR. Assuming you can wind it exactly the same every time, it will sound the way it was meant to. This is why I say the big X factor in winding a pickup is the touch that a hand winder has. If you and I both wind the exact same pickup design to the exact same DCR ( everything else is irrelevant ), they WILL sound different. For no other reason than you wind it one way, I wind it another.

As a sound engineer of 17 years, I have a saying to describe what makes a good sound engineer. " A good sound engineer is on that can make 7 out of 10 people in the room happy, the other three can go F*&$k themselves.... ". I think it is sort of the same for pickups. You can't make everyone happy, so how you wind a pickup and how I wind a pickup becomes part of the " sum of all parts " explanation I have. If you can get 7 out of 10 people to like your work, then the other three people don't matter. Not everyone likes SD, just like not everyone likes Dimarzio. They both make great pickups, have lots of options, and many of their products are probably closer in sound to one another than we would like to believe. I guess my major point was that the formula for how to make a pickup sound a certain way is not sorcery and magic, the sum of all those little factors creates an end result. If you can repeat that result, then all the hard work has been done.

There's quite a number of posts from Duncan employees and other winders on this very forum that would refute a number of things being asserted here. Simply because the basic recipe is bobbin, wire, magnet, you seem to believe anyone with those materials is equal in ability to produce an equivalent pickup. You seem to think hand touch is the only variance. You don't even account for wire thickness/insulation variance, tension or layering method in your description, all which can be setup by machine. Kind of reminds me of all the people who suddenly are engineers because they bought ProTools. Just because materials are available still doesn't give you the research experience, knowledge and understanding to know the diffrences going into a model and control for the right outcome. What's labelled as bullcrap sounds more like ignorance of everything that is really going into a product. Anyone can buy a cookbook and slap ingredients together by name, but it takes another level of skill and knowledge to adapt given the circumstances of the ingredients (the quality, the variances, where they were sourced from) and control the outcome. It's not sorcery and magic, and perhaps not rocket science, but for professionals working to create a specific product, it is a lot of research and deep knowledge of eletromagnetic circuits and materials, far moreso than your post allows. But then if your goal is to please 7 and tell the rest to f*ck themselves, that's pretty much a fail in audio engineering. It does show that oversimplifying a problem results in never solving it.
 
^^
Speaking from a cook's perspective, this is true, but you really can't ever please everyone. You start by understanding how to please yourself, and then yes, you will have a better ability to tailor your results to your audience. And of course there is a learning curve.

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Let's look at it like this. If I tell you that making great sounding pickups is as easy as taking a poop in the morning, would you buy my pickups? If I told you making great sounding pickups was harder than herding cats, that you have to sell your mother's soul to the devil, and that getting stabbed in the penis is easier, would you want to buy my pickups then?

I don't think you read my post entirely. I do mention wire gauge, tension, and layering/winding as being a part of the equation. A machine can wind the pickup as you program it to. They will scatter wind, or wind it like a fishing reel. Once you have the design and desired wind, the machine will wind it as such. A human touch is another level. Why are Abigail and Maricela so famous? Because they wrap a shitty pickup? Hell no, it's because they have a talent that most others don't. They can wrap with a level of consistency and touch that a machine and most other humans cannot. Whatever they do, it is better than what most machine made pickups can do. When they wind a pickup, it costs more to own it and it is also made to a higher standard. I said it plain as day that if we both had the exact same bobbins, wire, and everything, that if you wind it, and I wind it to the same specification, the pickups will sound different. Because you will wind it differently than I will. If you or I wind the pickup the same every time we do it, the pickup even though they are exactly the same, will impart the sound that our individual winding technique creates. The tension you use and the way you scatter the wind will be different than mine and that is what will differentiate them.

So, unless you have actually spent the time to make a pickup, you have no input that is valid beyond opinion. I NEVER said it was easy, I NEVER said it was cookie cutter. I said ( in a nutshell ) that if you know enough, you will have enough data and skill to " design " a pickup using a pretty basic palette, to achieve a goal; once you have a recipe, then it is cookie cutter. I.E. If I told Seymour himself that I want a pickup that sounds like absolute poop on a rope, he might actually have an idea of how to acquire that sound, and now that he's made that pickup, he has the recipe and can make it over and over again. If you said I want a pickup that does X, Y, or Z, I have a pretty good idea of what it will take to make that a reality.

BTW, I have done sound for Seymour Duncan and The Guitar Army a few times. I live in Santa Barbara. I have been doing this for a long time. You cannot make 100% of the people standing in the room happy. Period. And quite obviously, that statement is tongue in cheek. And if you think you can do sound so good that 10/10 will give you a 100% performance, well I have an island to sell you. Musicians are a problem looking for a solution. I am that solution. I am also a musician : ) Been playing for 27+ years! I have done sound for THOUSANDS of different bands, all over the country and abroad. I put multi-million dollar PA systems in the sky, tune them, and run them. I have worked with and for some of the worst and best bands known to man. I have completely sold the farm a few times and have had many many flawless events where I do believe that the majority of people in the room were just as happy as I was. The goal is 100% every time. I can tell you that performing to 100% is very, VERY hard. I only know one guy that I feel is a .01% performer in this field. I feel based on my many years in this field that I am setting around the 95th percentile of ability to provide the best of what your money can buy. The average sound guy is probably no better than 70%. If you are at 90% or better, you are traveling the country and beyond making a VERY good wage. If you aren't, you just do it. So yeah, I care probably more than you do about making those 7 out of 10 people happy, the goal is 10 out of 10, but as long as the person signing the check is stoked, I pretty much won already anyway; it is their money after all. I also said a good sound engineer, not a great one. I'm not a great one yet, but I am several steps above the dude down the street wearing flip flops and driving a 1990 Ford Taurus that says he is.

So to recap, the Duncan Design pickup is made to sound similar to another pickup ( of interest ) at a reduced cost. They obviously couldn't make it sound exactly like the intended selling point, or everyone would buy the cheap pickup that has no margin instead. I think at this point, that for all the popular brands, making a new pickup design is really not all that hard for them. They may have to make it a half dozen times to get the " recipe " just how they want it, but you can wind a pickup in a pretty short period of time, even by hand. I think the hardest part for any given pickup manufacturer that you know is SKU management, marketing/PR, and sales. Why do pickups or other products get discontinued? Because they aren't selling, the market has shifted to something else that has reduced demand for that product. So you have to continually make new products that are forward in the market ( predicting the future of the market if you will ), and you have to carefully manage how you will spend capital in order to push the new products. All the way down to product sponsorship and contest, giveaways, and artist relations. The R&D costs for a new pickup design are probably pennies compared to the cost of marketing, artist support, and machine programming. Seymour Duncan's Zephyr line is a good example. He told one of his top guys to go ahead and go wild. So he did. I can bet you he didn't wind too many sets of them before he settled on his " recipe ". It's not that he has much to compete with. There is no other company or person that I know of that is using silver wire to wind their pickups. But you can only screw up, or tweak the design a few times before a project like that will get scrapped. He had an idea of what he wanted and was able to get there. While I think the whole Cryogenically treated wire thing is a little over the top, the whole concept of the pickup was to be over the top. Having heard them, I think they are too bright, but if that's your bag, well, you can spend $1,500 on a set if you'd like.

So no, it's not voodoo. If you get into doing it, you will find that with some basic knowledge, you can wind a pickup to achieve a set of goals. I find it easier to know what you are referencing against. If you have a set of SL-1's and you want an SL-5 sound, well, it should be pretty easy to figure out with basic knowledge what you need to get that. I'm not saying you will do it the first time every time, but you can at least get in the dugout.
 
I'll just put this out there: The professionals in the business I've worked with, whom I respected, and have been mentored by, never have such a miserably arrogant attitude. I've found people who talk like that are the most difficult to impossible to work with. For your consideration, you also don't know who you are talking to, do you? Do you know what my past career experience is?

More off topic for the record, in my view and experience, the goal of a sound engineer isn't to please anyone. The goal of a sound engineer is to present the material as transparently and faithfully as possible. It's up to the artist and their material whether anyone is pleased by it. If people are noticing you and 'pleased' by your mix, IMO you're probably doing something wrong to stick out that much. And if 30% of the audience is bothered by the mix, IME that indicates sound team hasn't done enough to deal with room modes, tuning the sound system, or setting the listening position in the correct location, or ensuring the source material is good to start with and a host of other problems that are really their problem to solve. IME a good sound engineer can make the program material nearly the same for most everyone in the room, if they really do the job of sound engineer; even some that drive a 1990 Ford Taurus and wear flip flops. But that is just my opinion based on my experience. YMMV
 
Beau,

The long and short of it is this: You are responsible for you, and I for me. What you think I should do or be talent-wise, is irrelevant unless you are paying me with your own money. Your shortcomings are my problem just as much as my own shortcomings are ( as it pertains to the end result ). What you think I do and what I actually do are not the same. You like who you like because you like them, whether they are actually that good at their job is irrelevant after that. When the sound sucks bad enough that people will openly complain, there is usually more than one person to blame. I don't have a shitty attitude, I have enough experience to tell me that what I want/need I can't get because the guitarist told me his amp WILL be on 11 whether I want it to or not, the drummer either hits the snare with a baseball bat or a toothpick, the bassist thinks it's cool to rattle the buildings 10 blocks away, or the singer whispers into the mic like Michael Jackson while the band flogs away like Meshuggah at the Madison Square Gardens..... I'm not miserably arrogant anymore than you have shown to be. If you know so much, why aren't you making pickups, mixing sound for a band you have heard of, and building amps and guitars that sell for Dumble prices? You have an opinion on all of those things and seem to know so much about how they are made and done, so.......

I say that making pickups is not magic, you say they are, but you haven't actually ever made a pickup ( or at least you haven't said you have ), I have made many. You know what my job is because? And now I actually hear from a horse's mouth what I have only heard of on other forums; that a sound guys job is to be transparent and impart ZERO artistic talent or input, that if the sound sucks it's the sound guy's fault, and that if it sounds F-N amazing he didn't do a god damn thing to get it there ( because he shouldn't have ) and he did a bad job imparting his ability to make your shitty ass band sound that good in the first place. Who's got a bad attitude about what? I have NEVER actually been told by a musician until now that if I add artistic or complimentary input, I did a bad job and that if the sound sucks, it was my fault, also. Seriously, this is the stuff that is talked about on sound forums and is teased as being the mindset of some musicians. I actually got to read it with my own eyes today after 17 years of doing this for the first time from an actual musician that believes that! That is arrogance. The idea that another person's job is to make sure they have nothing to do with the end result, but that if it's bad, it's their fault. What are sound guys to you? Are we just an impediment to your amazingness? Seriously WTF. God complex much...

Let's be super duper real for a second. If you aren't paying the sound guy to be there, he has no real responsibility to you beyond OUR employer's expectations. We are both just players on the team collecting a check. You mind you, I mind me, if all goes well we WIN as a TEAM. Guess which way I prefer it? If you guessed team, then you hit a win button. If 100 out of 100 people come up and say it sounded amazing, the best it ever has, It sure as hell isn't your band alone that got it there, and heaven forbid the sound guy took some liberties to help out.

Here is my suggestion, not just to you, but to everyone out there. If you are serious about playing guitar and want to learn more about what makes a guitar tick, make or buy a pickup winding machine, a DIY pickup set, some wire of your choice, and steal the wife/GF's crockpot and throw some candle wax in it. Just make a pickup. Then compare it to the pickup you had in the guitar and take some notes. Is it thinner sounding, too bassy, or whatever you may think. Then read a little on what you can do to fix that. Cut the old coil off the pickup and re-wrap it in accordance with your research. More or less windings, more or less scatter, whatever that may be, and then listen again.

A half pound of wire will make between 6 and 10 pickup coils. You can buy DIY coil sets, or if you wish you can even ala carte the individual parts to your desire. I built a machine for about $75 with a stepper motor and an all in one stepper driver and controller and a hall effect high-speed counter. All stuff you can find on Amazon. I would bet that for about the cost of a high-end set of pickups you can build a winder, enough coil kits, and wire to make 2 full sets of pickups. A pound of wire will make 12 or so pickups.

And remember that a sound guy is there for himself just as much as he is there for you. They have to listen to you after all. His ears are as valuable to him as your musicianship is to you. If you give him zero rope to tie a knot with, then don't be surprised when you don't get a knot. It is pretty hard for a sound guy to make you sound worse than you actually are. A good sound engineer can polish a turd, but it is still a turd. And if you actually believe that a sound guy shouldn't polish a turd just because he can, well then you're just going to sound like a turd.
 
What an excellent and informative thread. Thank you to all who contributed. To me the issue is simple .If a guitar is well made and of good design and is fitted with a pick up based on a tested and tried formula, it will probably sound good. I have an elderly Greg Bennett Royal archtop semi hollow body fitted stock with covered 101s which is permanently out and my go to practice guitar . It is stock except for a professional fret job.and sounds,IMHO just like a good 335 type should..A buddy has a stunning Cort M600 (PRS clone) which also has covered 101s. It's one of the nicest sounding guitars I have ever played and has wonderful sustain. Examples I think of well made and well designed guitars having well designed pups which suit them.

I also have a schecter arch top which has uncovered 102s , This has a definite hotter less mellow sond but is excellent for classic rock. I have the option to put the bridge in parallel which can produce a "clearer" lead sound.which I quite like if I am not using a pedal. I have some real SDs which I am very happy with but am fairly sure that I would not consider upgrading the 101's and 102's to 59s and the hot rod set as money well spent. If you like it you leave it. Interestingly all the guitars mentioned were made in South Korea.
 
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