Duncan PAF question

[the guy who invented fire]

Hey guys, I'm trying to see if anyone besides myself would like a pickup like this.

Does anyone here have any interest in a true PAF style pickup (set) from Duncan.

What I mean is a pickup that is just like what you'd get if you pulled the pickups from a 50s Gibson with humbucking pickups.

I'm not all that worried with the non sonic details such as tooling marks, period correct hook up leads and crisp lines on the covers...

I am taking about the correct types of magnets, period correct wind and of course cover material, base plates and butyrate bobbins.

Before someone asks about Antiquities, Seth Lovers or the Bonamassa pickups anybody that has any real experience with real PAF pickups knows that those pickups are great but very much an improved/modernized version if a PAF.

Nothing against any of SDs current PAF style pickups I'm just wondering if anyone besides myself would be interested in a Duncan "true PAF".


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[CTN]

Re: Duncan PAF question

...but wasn't the whole deal that there is too much variability from PAF to PAF (magnet type, # of turns, bobbins) to nail down the specs definitively and successfully span every PAF...?

 

[Chocklit_Thunda]

Re: Duncan PAF question

I love the idea but I think CTN is right... weren't PAF's completely random? Even in magnet grade. Some were AlNiCo V, IV, II, III etc Unless SD start winding bobbins randomly until they look full and chucking them in a box until it's time to pick 2 out to make a Humbucker with... Even then a lot of them would sound crap like a lot of the PAF's of old.

My 2c

 

[AlexR]

Re: Duncan PAF question

^ Of course everyone knows PAF's were all over the place, but you'd pick whether it was a high K rated set, or a low one, or even duplicate a pair in someone's possession that sounded great. Every PAF clone winder I know does this (save for ReWind, who has just introduced a 'random 57, 58 or 59' set where the strength is totally arbitrary or random - each pickup will sound good though).
No one is saying that it should be random in the slightest. But you can make the tone of the pickup sound great and authentic to the time-period - the pattern of the slug 101 winder can be duplicated for example, and doesn't Seymour own one of the screw coil winding machines??

But I'm not sure whether this would be that viable for Duncan. Guys like Wizz and Throbak can do it because they have had to do a lot of legwork just to source materials for small batches anyhow. A little more time to get the right screw shape and alloy, or the L stamping on the legs is well worth it. Duncan would have to go through all of this from scratch....making new molds, sourcing new materials etc. So the price is going to be pretty much the same if not slightly more.
The last issue - if you went along to MLP and asked about boutique PAF clones, I bet you'd probably have a hard time convincing some of them that Duncan was an alternative....too mainstream.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Duncan PAF question

o.0

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Duncan PAF question

I am taking about the correct types of magnets, period correct wind and of course cover material, base plates and butyrate bobbins.

The only thing missing from all you're asking is the Alnico 4 mags. Ther rest is already included in both in the Seths and the Ants.

The fact that Seymour doesn't advertise 'bout all that "period correct" parts and alloys it doesn't mean he doesn't have'em.

Fx, plain enamel wire is ordered in-bulk-to-vintage-specs, which is even used on the "lowly" '59s. Which are wound in the original Leesona 102, used to wind the legendary PAFs everybody drools about.

Seymour put "boutique" into the mainstream, and because of that, he's the high-volume "mainstream" vendor and not "boutique" anymore. If he decided to go full-out hyped, snake-oil and esoteric with a completely new line of p'ups costing over $ 500.00 a set,differing from their stablished line just cosmetically, the whole "boutique" industry would be severely shaken up. But he's the "live and let live" kind of guy, so no problem for the literally hundreds of guys in basements selling "boutique" out of Mojo or Stew-Mac kits.

BTW, if you make a search on patent.google.com using "Seymour Duncan" and "Kevin Beller", you'll be surprised how many technologies applied to p'ups they developed and patented.

HTH,

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Duncan PAF question

I didn't start this thread to debate how correct Duncan PAFs are so let's please not get off on that...

Real quick just to address the above statement about current SD offerings.

Ants are wound to sound 50+ years old and they are also calibrated and used aged magnets.

Seth Lovers are made in a very much ideal fashion and are also calibrated, use polished magnets and are very polite sounding in general, much sweeter than any PAF I have ever tried.

The Bonamassa pickups are wound to sound like a set of 50+ year old pickups today not to mention the bridge is overwound slightly compared to Joes original.

59s are all wrong if you really look...calibrated winds, polished magnets, potted, coil matching, bobbin material, etc...

Add to that that all Duncan PAF style pickups have an even quality, a sort of sweetness that makes them fatter and more compressed than any real PAF I have ever used.

I'm not saying these are bad qualities at all but from a players standpoint if you want a dead nuts PAF sound it's close in ways and miles away in others.


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[iggy23]

Re: Duncan PAF question

i am so happy with the WLH set
no more worries,searching,wasting time online...
just play!!!

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Duncan PAF question

I didn't start this thread to debate how correct Duncan PAFs are so let's please not get off on that...

Real quick just to address the above statement about current SD offerings.

Ants are wound to sound 50+ years old and they are also calibrated and used aged magnets.

Seth Lovers are made in a very much ideal fashion and are also calibrated, use polished magnets and are very polite sounding in general, much sweeter than any PAF I have ever tried.

The Bonamassa pickups are wound to sound like a set of 50+ year old pickups today not to mention the bridge is overwound slightly compared to Joes original.

59s are all wrong if you really look...calibrated winds, polished magnets, potted, coil matching, bobbin material, etc...

Add to that that all Duncan PAF style pickups have an even quality, a sort of sweetness that makes them fatter and more compressed than any real PAF I have ever used.

I'm not saying these are bad qualities at all but from a players standpoint if you want a dead nuts PAF sound it's close in ways and miles away in others.


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You only need to put good A4 magnets degaussed only to about 93-95% of their nominal charge by BH curve in an Ant set and you're done.

THEN go a have a blind test with real PAFs and tell me how they fared.

HTH,

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Duncan PAF question

So you want Duncan to just start up a product line where they use correct-styled materials, and just wind at random, pick a magnet at random, and assemble random coils and call it a day? I'd be down if they charge corresponding prices for how much thought went into making the pickups (significantly less than all of their other models).

The Seth Lover is the PAF when the plans were actually followed. Actual Gibson PAFs merely just followed Lover's idea rather than his exact plans.

 

[CTN]

Re: Duncan PAF question

I don't wanna rain on anyone's gearhead-ness because lord knows i'm extremely guilty of fetishizing guitar stuff and getting far too heavily into the technical aspects of gear instead of just using the damn stuff...

but I came across a tiny little piece of music while watching a video on youtube today, wasn't looking for any guitar stuff, but there was a piece of music on this video, which featured some EXTREMELY tasty tone.

That was one of the few times I'd heard such awesome tone on a piece of media that had very little to do with me being a music nerd or a guitarist/gearhead. And I thought to myself, "huh...what would happen if someone listened to that, who had no idea of what a long, painful quest it might've been to acquire that tone? Would they care? Would they be able to tell any difference between really great guitar tone and for example, a totally authentic repro-PAF? Would they spend any time at all dwelling on how that guitar tone had affected them to their core?"

And I had to answer myself, "Un-bloody-likely. Probably it would just slip right out of their mind and they would get on with their lives, and all the time, work, sweat, blood and tears that the guitarist and his buddies spent searching for and acquiring that tone, has basically amounted to nothing."

And you know what? As musicians, or at least for gigging musicians, it is oftentimes the non-musicians who we are playing for. The tone is important to sounding good yeah, but it is so not worth obsessing with. Avg Joe Schmo will not be able to tell the difference between a Seth, a Throbak a Lollar, or whatever. It will matter not one iota to them. What matters to them is:
a) that your band has their stuff together enough to not blow ass on stage, and
b) that you play that one song that they're screaming for while drunk off their ass, certainly far too drunk to appreciate any care and effort you've taken in crafting your guitar tone, spending god knows how many thousands of dollars on gear.

bottom line: good gear is important but obsessing over the tiniest details that will fly straight over the heads of 98% of people you're ever likely to play for is totally not worth it. Get the Seth or an Ant or whatever, be happy, play more, obsess less.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Duncan PAF question

So you want Duncan to just start up a product line where they use correct-styled materials, and just wind at random, pick a magnet at random, and assemble random coils and call it a day? I'd be down if they charge corresponding prices for how much thought went into making the pickups (significantly less than all of their other models).

The Seth Lover is the PAF when the plans were actually followed. Actual Gibson PAFs merely just followed Lover's idea rather than his exact plans.

No, I am not at all saying random...

I am simply saying one set of true spec PAF pickups.

 

[CTN]

Re: Duncan PAF question

but there is no singular spec for PAFs!

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Duncan PAF question

CTN, I do see your point and agree but I'm not think about this for the folks in the crowd but more for myself...

It matters to me. I love Duncan pickups and have been a long time Duncan user but have wished for a while now that they had a correct spec PAF pickup...I say pickup because if done right, there would only be one and you'd use that pickup in both the neck and bridge position!

In fact, I'd like to see a true spec PAF set, Strat set and at least one Telecaster set but one step at a time!

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Duncan PAF question

but there is no singular spec for PAFs!

Yes...you guys keep beating that drum but a pickup that is not made to sound like a 50+ year old pickup and both pickups in the "general" spec range as far as the DC resistance goes would be a huge start.

I know all PAF's are different and the DC range is a HUGE variable but there is a general window of the high 7 range...something like 7.8 give or take.

I know there were bunches in the high 6k/low 7k range and a few that are in the high 9k and even slightly higher but if you took 100 PAF pickups and measured them and took an average there would be a number that hung out in the high 7k range.

 

[CTN]

Re: Duncan PAF question

you should just call MJ or Seymour and be like "pretend it's 1959 and you work at Gibson. Make me a set of humbuckers"

and leave it at that.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Duncan PAF question

you should just call MJ or Seymour and be like "pretend it's 1959 and you work at Gibson. Make me a set of humbuckers"

and leave it at that.

There are a half dozen "Duncan should make this or that pickup" or "Duncan needs so and so pickup in their line up" every week to 10 days.

This is just an idea, I'm sort of just wondering if I am alone, almost alone or not nearly alone in a want like this from Duncan.

 

[CTN]

Re: Duncan PAF question

Gotcha.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Duncan PAF question

I am with ya Christian, in sentiment at least. Not sure I would buy any tho. Once ya start getting into period correct magnet alloys, period correct pole and slug alloys, and all the other perfection details guys like Thro-back, EC, etc. (or Klein for strat pups, e.g.) do, then why not just buy from those guys? There is just more hands on attention to detail with custom stuff.


If you mean the duncan production line equivalent ofa BB1,..uneven winds, but the Duncan would also have theappropriate magnet type and cast, no wax potting etc...IOW, a direct clone of a specific period correct pickup, as opposed to Seymour's idealized PAF types he currently produces, sure I would welcome them. As the current production/antiquity stuff is just kinda stale/uninspiring to me after all these years (tho, I have not tried the WLH set as of yet and reserve judgement on those).

At any rate,fun to ponder, but most likely a moot point.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Duncan PAF question

but there is no singular spec for PAFs!

You miss the point - comprehensively. I really can't understand how anyone could possibly interpret 'making a PAF replica' and assume you're going to turn a out a bunch of pickups with a random spec and no regard to how they might end up sounding.

You pick a spec of one that works, a magic set where it all went right. People buy PAF's because they want to get one of those sets, not the dodgy 'everything went wrong' ones. The alloys, bobbin material, baseplate etc were pretty much standard, but this was where something where the composition of the older alloys weren't researched that much until more recently. The same with magnets. The older magnet compositions are different to today's, which is one of the reasons why vintage long magnets are so prized.

I mean PAF's aren't great because they had a variable spec, they are great because 'of those variable specs, there were quite a few happy accidents that turned out magically wonderful'