Duncan PAF question

Re: Duncan PAF question

But isn't that more or less what you get with the pearly gates, the Bonamassa set, the WLH and the Seth? They don't use period correct materials but they are all meant to be replications of some or other PAF set that had the magic for its player.
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

I'm officially in the "WHich exact vintage PAF are you talking about?" camp.

Which mag, how many winds, etc....
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

You miss the point - comprehensively. I really can't understand how anyone could possibly interpret 'making a PAF replica' and assume you're going to turn a out a bunch of pickups with a random spec and no regard to how they might end up sounding.

You pick a spec of one that works, a magic set where it all went right. People buy PAF's because they want to get one of those sets, not the dodgy 'everything went wrong' ones. The alloys, bobbin material, baseplate etc were pretty much standard, but this was where something where the composition of the older alloys weren't researched that much until more recently. The same with magnets. The older magnet compositions are different to today's, which is one of the reasons why vintage long magnets are so prized.

I mean PAF's aren't great because they had a variable spec, they are great because 'of those variable specs, there were quite a few happy accidents that turned out magically wonderful'

i got the point thanks.

what i'm saying is that even among those magic ones, there is lots of variability. If you want to be quantitative and average them all out, sure go ahead, but that's no guarantee of producing a spec that will result in a great product.
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

I'm going to add my .02

what's wrong with getting 2 floor shop customs, maybe like 2 slash a2pro neck p-ups (@ like 7.9k) unpotted?

I mean, lew advocates the 3 ant II surfer neck pickup setup in a strat.

I'm just saying, if you want two pickups wound by sight you can do that with any number of booteek winders. If you want what seth lover would have wound knowing what we know now, well yeah. That's not a tricky proposition.

I don't know,I've never played a PAF. But, it's like - the market is about as saturated as saturated gets. I understand brand loyalty, but if SD doesn't make what you want, it isn't like you're out of options.
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

^ Pick one spec, from one set of pickups. A good set. A magic set. Just about every decent winder would have a set or two around. Test it....exhaustively. Magnet type. wind pattern and tension. Screw alloys, baseplate composition etc

Now this is about the 4th time I'm saying exactly the same thing. Maybe I need to target my language to 3-year old level to be understood.
 
Last edited:
Duncan PAF question

Guys, this is not that hard...

I am not talking about a specific set of PAFs or anything crazy here, no more research no jumping through hoops...nothing crazy.

Just a set of PAF style pickups without all modern updates Seymour does on all his other PAF pickups.

We all accept that the 59s and Ants are PAF but you guys are trying to hammer no 2 PAFs are the same on this and I know that.

Seymour's PAF style pickups all have things about them that make them easier to use and things that Seymour felt needed to be addressed from real PAF pickups.

All I am asking is if anybody else would be into a 50s PAF pickup. "Warts and all" from SD.

Truth is if you've never used a real PAF I'm not really even sure you could or should be answering in here because you really have no idea what you are saying yes or no to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Re: Duncan PAF question

All I am asking is if anybody else would be into a 50s PAF pickup. "Warts and all" from SD.

Truth is if you've never used a real PAF I'm not really even sure you could or should be answering in here because you really have no idea what you are saying yes or no to.

http://www.google.com/patents/US2896491

That's the original recipe. Is that what you want?

Looking at the perplexed posts here, looks like your communication skills are lacking, to say the least.

I, for one, that have had the opportunity to play with real '50s PAFs, in original '50s and 60s Les Pauls, SGs and ESs, plus in other non-Gibson accurate replicas, some of your statements in this thread makes me wonder what your hearing is telling you...

Again: what true PAF specs are you talking about? WHAT exactly are those elusive true PAF specs?
 
Last edited:
Re: Duncan PAF question

If someone else had started this thread, I'd expect TGWIF to straighten him out by telling him the original PAF's were all over the map in windings, resistance, & magnets. I guess that's why so many of us are confused. This question should be posed to Duncan, not to the members.
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

Other the use of whatever old school braid or whatever, I think we are all having trouble figuring out what he is talking about.

Either it has been done already, or we don't see the point. MJ has buckets of all that old crap floating around in bins and boxes in the Custom shop.

It's perhaps an interesting historical/archeological experiemnt. But I don't see the tonal issue. Do we really think that the braid or the spacer material will make it sound different? Or is that not the point????
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

It's perhaps an interesting historical/archeological experiment. But I don't see the tonal issue. Do we really think that the braid or the spacer material will make it sound different? Or is that not the point????
It's definitely an Indiana Jones thing. Seymour (the man) loves this stuff. He's also into arrowheads and archaeology. In fact, one time when we were talking he said he would love to make a "really" authentic PAF at some point.

But the issue at hand (at least the way I see it) is that it is a business; a brand. And it was built partially on being THE authority on vintage tone and accuracy. And to be honest, in that CBS/Norlin era when Seymour emerged on the scene, he nailed it. Seymour DID put in the time and the research. He was friends with the original cast of characters. Duncan's position is "look, for all the stuff that really matters, we are accurate." Now within these parameters, if you think all of SD's offerings are too hot, and you want that 6.9k neck/7.2k bridge, then MJ will make you some amazing pickups. And in my opinion, she has all of the important parts to capture vintage-accurate tone.

Here's where it gets convoluted: Guys like Throbak have decided that SD doesn't go far enough in their pursuit of accuracy, and that they can build a brand/product line on "out-vintaging" Seymour. It's not enough to have the Leesona 102, now you need some OTHER winder that they barely used. Throbak is a good example of doing many things right, but plenty of others somehow pretend they have uncovered some magic pixie dust, or that on Thursdays, Jim used to dump Irish whiskey into the vat of plain enamel so he wouldn't get caught. Or that somehow Unobtainium made it onto the alloy for 3 summer weeks in 1959. And they've told people that you NEED these outliers to capture the "real PAF" tone. Then, there are guys who can't afford/won't research the idiosyncrasies asserting that it doesn't matter, or "I've figured out how to NAIL the tone using other materials."

Its tough to know who to trust anymore, especially since they all have their own winding techniques which are responsible for greater differences than small pole piece alloy variations anyway.

Finally, this has created a business/branding minefield. If Duncan releases a premium "ultra-vintage spec" PAF, they're admitting the booteeks are right. They're in effect surrendering the authority to the little guys who have raised awareness. I know Seymour, and there's no greater authority in my opinion, especially not some of these Google-ologists who have only begun their research in the past 5-10 years. If'n you ask me, it's better for the brand to stick to their guns. The pickups sound great. They're extremely accurate by today's standards in manufacturing. If this were any other industry we'd be getting the cheapest modern materials along with a healthy dose of marketing assuring us they're "the same". Not so with SD.
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

Since i have said this many times before, this thread has made me realize I have a catchphrase. Ready? Here it goes:

"I'm with Frank on this one."
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

Finally, this has created a business/branding minefield. If Duncan releases a premium "ultra-vintage spec" PAF, they're admitting the booteeks are right. They're in effect surrendering the authority to the little guys who have raised awareness. I know Seymour, and there's no greater authority in my opinion, especially not some of these Google-ologists who have only begun their research in the past 5-10 years. If'n you ask me, it's better for the brand to stick to their guns. The pickups sound great. They're extremely accurate by today's standards in manufacturing. If this were any other industry we'd be getting the cheapest modern materials along with a healthy dose of marketing assuring us they're "the same". Not so with SD.

This is critical. As a business, when you address a competitor with a new product/pricing/whatever, you validate their position. You also validate that they are an actual competitive threat. It would not make any sense or Seymour to do this and would and in many ways invalidate the quality of the PAFs he produces.
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

Thank you, Frank. Very well stated.

TGWIF - You've got plenty of options. Call the Custom Shop or go to one of the smaller winders who make their living catering to requests like yours. You're not likely to see a completely vintage-correct PAF unveiled by SD as a regular "production" model, because there are already tonal equivalents in the lineup that do not require the extra expense to produce. However, the Custom Shop won't hesitate to hook you up. Also, CTN was right... Even if you "average" out the specs of a large number of PAFs as you mentioned, it is unlikely that you've uncovered a secret recipe for great PAF tone. Similarly, if I tally the key components of 400 pizzas and realize the highest marks went to dough, tomato sauce and cheese, it still doesn't mean my pizza, while appearing "correct" in "spec", is going to taste great.

AlexR - If you are suggesting that SD take a particular "magic" example of a PAF and recreate it, well, SD has already done that. You can get the sound for $80 (production model) or the sound AND construction for $160 (custom shop). Your choice.
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

Personally I like that many companies are making pretty consistent versions of a PAF. I happen to be a fan of Seymour's '59 more than any other I've tried but if someone wants a brighter or hotter or whatever version go get a brand "B". I just wouldn't want to play any more of a guessing game than we already do trying to figure out what a pickup will sound like in a specific guitar.
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

Couldn't you have your cake and eat it too?

Since there is a lot of talk about the lack of turn-counting on PAFs which makes the coils have different outputs, couldn't you take a, say, Seth coil and a WLH coil and combine them? You would have modern quality with period correct material, and have unmatched coils.

As far as the magnet goes, if they threw whatever in it then I would think you could do the same and be 'authentic'.

CTN had a great post about 98% of people not being able to tell the difference. Kinda makes you proud you're in the 2%.
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

They're extremely accurate by today's standards in manufacturing. If this were any other industry we'd be getting the cheapest modern materials along with a healthy dose of marketing assuring us they're "the same". Not so with SD.

I'm a little curious how important is the bold part in the meaning of what you said?
I don't mean anything covert by it, just that where else, in the "authentic reissue" world do we see companies making these kinds of attempts? If Sony reissued the cassette Walkman they would most surely make it out of the best bang for the buck plastic. Strongest/cheapest. There would be zero regard for the plastic used in the original. But they would tell you "it's just like the original" with little or no pressure for transparency from the marketplace. Even in our own industry there are reissue Les Pauls made of Mahogany from Africa instead of Honduras, 1968 reissue Fender amps with very little in common with my 1968 Showman head...part of it is because we have better methods today, but things like the RoHS initiative have pulled lead out of solder and other parts. Sometimes matching step-by-step to 1950s accuracy, a $2000 amp might be $10,000. Making a Sony Walkman in Japan today with the same everything would probably be $500. Yet you can still get a butyrate PAF style pickup with Alnico magnets, maple spacer, nickel silver components, plated slugs cut from rod stock, not cast. All for less than $200. Quite amazing in the grand scheme of things.

Since i have said this many times before, this thread has made me realize I have a catchphrase. Ready? Here it goes:

"I'm with Frank on this one."
Hah! I say a lot of dumb stuff, too. Be careful! :)
 
Re: Duncan PAF question

You know, I've always wanted to get a really nice set of PAFs based on either the '59s or the Seths but with A4 mags. I know they were heavily used in the original PAFs (not all, but many had A4s). I was thinking of either checking out BKPs as I think the Mules have these. And of course, MJ is a call away (I love that woman). But I've never owned a pair of stock Seths, so that is where I would like to start.
 
Back
Top