duped on wattage...

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the toad

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So my first guitar amp was a pignose 7-100 5w battery powered thing... I was just learning to play blues and after doing a lot of research, it seemed a 5w amp is pretty ideal for bedroom practice and such... The pignose was cheap and seemed to have tons of good reviews about its good tone... I thought I cared nothing about volume till I got the package and unboxed and started playing it, it was very quiet, plugged in or batteries made no difference... It wasn't terrible, the tone was actually good, portability was epic and if you really wanna play super quiet, like having an unmiked conversation while playing quiet, it's perfect.

But alas I wanted to actually make some noise and hopefully at least be able to keep up with the television speakers... Also I started playing rock and metal also so wanted something with a lot of tonal options... These requisites combined with minimal funding led me to the Vox Valvetronix vt20+ (30w)...

I like the Vox and have got a lot of use out of it over the past couple years, it's sorta like having a 4-8channel amp cept they're just preset buttons and then the dials don't work normally etc... But the factory speaker sucks at any volume level, I almost always just use the line out into a small 120w PA, which is light years ahead of the factory speaker...

Along the lines I also got a zoom g3 modeling pedal that I got to run into the front end of the Vox for more stompbox control and options, but found I don't like the sound into the front end and instead use just one or the other into the PA with good results (considering the whole setup was under $500 (all new stuff)...

But I've also played (at guitar center at low volume) mesa road king & MK V, engl powerball, 6505, rockerverb, etc... They all sound so much deeper and richer... Even at lower volumes than my vox at low volume.... So I'm not really too sold on the "you gotta crank them to sound good" but I'm also not sold on the "small wattage amps are hardly any quieter than amps double their size" either...

So I know 5w is not enough... 30w is like ok for practice (I do live in the country and like it really loud)... And if I plan to melt faces off at metal shows, I'm gonna need a lot more...

I really would like to have just one amp that I use for everything... Of course I'll keep the others as spares... But yeah... Am I missing something or should I just get a Mesa Road King and some cabs now that I can afford them?
 
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Re: duped on wattage...

1. Do not get hung up on "Wattage".
It can often be more of a marketing tool than a legitimate spec. Like saying how many horsepower a car has.....it depends on a few things.

2. Your Pignose is an 85 Dollar practice amp with a cheap, 5" speaker.
A carpenter dose not buy a "hammer".....and then use that one hammer for Framing, sheet rock, door casings, nailing Walnut Panels in a fancy dining room, etc. etc.
YOU may well find one amp that covers all your needs, but that is not the common experience for most guitar players.
good luck
 
Re: duped on wattage...

the toad said:
But I've also played (at guitar center at low volume) mesa road king & MK V, engl powerball, 6505, rockerverb, etc... They all sound so much deeper and richer... Even at lower volumes than my vox at low volume.... So I'm not really too sold on the "you gotta crank them to sound good" but I'm also not sold on the "small wattage amps are hardly any quieter than amps double their size" either...
Click to expand...

well.. some amps do actually sound better cranked to get the best sound out of.. mainly i would say this would apply to the older tube amps IMO..

that second statement.. tube amps are generally louder than their SS counterparts.. especially the smaller tube amps.... only going by what i have read and heard.. i.e. im pretty sure that a 5 watt tube amp would probably be louder than a 5 watt SS amp

ALOT of factors go into how loud an amp can get..wattage isnt the only one .. others LIKE the SPL rating on your speaker... MY rg100 starts playing with the fabric of space-time when its cranked.. LOL

alot more knowledgeable people that I on this subject im sure.. as i havent owned all that many amps

when i first started out back around '89.. i bought a used 10-15watt fender.. guitarist starting out are so damn lucky to have all those excellent entry level modellers now adays.. i upgraded to a randall rg 100 2 years later.. still own it
 
Re: duped on wattage...

the toad said:
But I've also played (at guitar center at low volume) mesa road king & MK V, engl powerball, 6505, rockerverb, etc... They all sound so much deeper and richer... Even at lower volumes than my vox at low volume.... So I'm not really too sold on the "you gotta crank them to sound good" but I'm also not sold on the "small wattage amps are hardly any quieter than amps double their size" either...
Click to expand...

You kind of got off the "wattage" subject here, and started talking about tone. If you're talking about metal, then low end and percussive attack are part of the required tone, and big amps deliver that. Think of the car analogy, where volume is speed. Low end is like a truck's ability to carry a big payload, and you need a big engine to carry the load, even if you're not going fast. Attack is similar to acceleration, again, a powerful engine is what gives that 'Vette its quick 0-60 time, even if you lay off the gas when the speedo hits 55.

So, the type of amp and its inherent tone is as important as its wattage rating. The Pignose is actually loud enough for some types of gigs (I recently saw a video of Frank Zappa playing one on TV with the house band on the Mike Douglas show, IIRC.) They problem with the Pignose it that it has a soft bluesy kind of tone, not what you need for metal. A Tweed Bassman would be plenty loud for most metal shows you might play, but again, it has a soft, saggy kind of tone that won't work for metal.

Getting back to watts, you are talking about a HUGE step up going from a 30-watt modeling amp to a 100-watt Mesa. I won't get into the theoretical reasoning behind the "tube watts vs. solid-state watts" issue here, but suffice it to say, tube amps are roughly as effective as SS amps of twice their power. So, your SS Vox is roughly equivalent to a 12-watt, all tube Princeton Reverb. Taking that 2x factor into account, you're talking about stepping up to an amp that's effectively 7-10 times more powerful that what you have now.

Surely there's something in between. There's no way you'll need a 100-watt Mesa 1/2- or full-stack, unless you're jumping straight from playing at home to playing arenas. The good news is that over the last few years, virtually everybody who makes high-gain metal amps has back-filled their product lines with lower-wattage but full-featured versions of their flagship 100-watters. Mesa Rectos and Mark V, Peavey 6505, EVH, Hughes & Kettner, Orange... everybody now make smaller 50- and (better yet) 25-watt versions of the big boys. These smaller amps are voiced to give the metal tones that a Pignose or Princeton or Bassman won't, but at volumes suitable for home, rehearsal studios, and bars. Also, they cost less. No sense spending $$$ on an arena-capable rig unless you're actually playing arenas, regardless of whether you have the extra cash available.

I played my most recent gig on a 13-watt DIY Marshall clone and the rhythm player was using a 5-watt Champ clone through a 12". They both did the job admirably, but I'm not going to tell you a 13-watt amp is good enough for you, because my gig wasn't metal. You simply need more watts to bring the heavies, but you do not realistically need 100 watts. Look long and hard at 25 and 50 watt heads, 2x12" cabs and at most a 4x12 cab. If you're into Mesa, consider the mini Mark 5 with a Recto 2x12 cab. You may have to expand your search area beyond GC, in my experience they have a few pro-grade pieces, but not enough to make comparisons among several different choices.
 
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Re: duped on wattage...

^It's not just about "how loud can it get", but also about how cleanly the poweramp can handle churning out blazing palm-muted gallops in Drop Z at full-band levels with heavy-hitting drummers without going too into a "Plexi on the edge of explosion" kinda poweramp craze.

Not to say 50-watt or even 25-watt amps cannot handle these duties, but the tone of 100-watt amps is slightly different, especially at these levels. 100-watt amps are still very understandably desirable, even if you're not playing arenas.
 
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Re: duped on wattage...

I had one of those pignose amps years ago
it played loud enough to make the neighbors in my apartment complex walk over

then it stopped working(battery I think)
MF took it back and I got the Hog 40
it was louder neighbors complained, speaker blew

and that was that
 
Re: duped on wattage...

Rex_Rocker said:
^It's not just about "how loud can it get", but also about how cleanly the poweramp can handle churning out blazing palm-muted gallops in Drop Z at full-band levels with heavy-hitting drummers without going too into a "Plexi on the edge of explosion" kinda poweramp craze.

Not to say 50-watt or even 25-watt amps cannot handle these duties, but the tone of 100-watt amps is slightly different, especially at these levels. 100-watt amps are still very understandably desirable, even if you're not playing arenas.
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This might just be what I'm trying to describe... Like, it's not the whole volume range, it's just that I can never get any low end out of it without rolling back the highs and mids and running the volume way up to try to beef up the bottom..

In my car (I'm more knowledgeable in 12v dc) I have 250w at 4ohm going to my single 10" sub yet only 20w gong to the Low Frequency cut coaxials 2x that are bright as you could ever want...

I'd love to have that kind of bottom end in a guitar amp. And do if I run it thru thethe PA and boost the low freq eq... But then I gotta bring the PA... Which is more of a scene than grabbing a head and cab.

I've also been looking (online, none in stock locally) at stuff like
- Mesa Recto Verb 25
- Engl Ironball
- H&K Grandmeister 36
- Orange #4 Terror
- Splawn Super Sport

Paired with a Recto 2x12 vert cab...

Will that give me good bottom end and reasonable clean headroom in a live pub/club type setting? I'm far from a pro and have just started playing with people/bands
 
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Re: duped on wattage...

I rarely dupe anyone......

As much as wattage is an issue for the amp you bought an 8" speaker isn't going to much for you either.
 
Re: duped on wattage...

"Guitar" is not a low end instrument...and guitar speakers are not designed to reproduce low frequencies. Your car stereo is a whole different animal.
Guitar is all about mids.....how much bottom end do you need.....more than Keith Richards, SRV, Clapton, EVH, Warren Haynes.?
You need to read about, and play some amps before you buy your next one. A pair of 6V6 (20 Watts) into a quality Out Tranny, into a pair of Emi Wizard and Governor ought to give "any" guitar player all the low end they need.
good luck
 
Re: duped on wattage...

the toad said:
I've also been looking (online, none in stock locally) at stuff like
- Mesa Recto Verb 25
- Engl Ironball
- H&K Grandmeister 36
- Orange #4 Terror
- Splawn Super Sport

Paired with a Recto 2x12 vert cab...

Will that give me good bottom end and reasonable clean headroom in a live pub/club type setting? I'm far from a pro and have just started playing with people/bands
Click to expand...

All of those are good choices and plenty loud for a band in smaller venues. That being said, you should also consider the Mini Rectifier (unless you need reverb) and the H&K Tubemeister 18. Don't get too caught up in low end; guitar is a midrange instrument after all. In a band setting most of those lower frequencies are filled in by bass & drums, so be a good neighbor :lol: and back off a bit on the bass. In the end your band will sound better and your bandmates won't want to punch you after the show.
 
Re: duped on wattage...

the toad said:
I've also been looking (online, none in stock locally) at stuff like
- Mesa Recto Verb 25
- Engl Ironball
- H&K Grandmeister 36
- Orange #4 Terror
- Splawn Super Sport

Paired with a Recto 2x12 vert cab...

Will that give me good bottom end and reasonable clean headroom in a live pub/club type setting? I'm far from a pro and have just started playing with people/bands
Click to expand...
Not to say those sound bad by any means, but if bottom-end resonance and clean headroom is what you're looking for, why are you even looking at those heads? None of those amps are particularly budget-friendly, AFAIK.
 
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Re: duped on wattage...

Rex_Rocker said:
Not to say those sound bad by any means, but if bottom-end resonance and clean headroom is what you're looking for, why are you even looking at those heads? None of those amps are particularly budget-friendly, AFAIK.
Click to expand...

"Looking at... On YouTube"... As in, I like the sound, but, I'm also running the audio thru a PA so they all sound huge....

That's kinda the reason for the posting, if my local GC had them in stock I'd just try them out and see... But since I can't test anything I'm asking about, I don't wanna get duped into something that isn't what I was expecting.

That's what my original question was asking If a 120 watt Mesa Road King would give me what I was looking for, and most everyone said "no", and that I should be looking in the 5-25watt range...

What amps specifically, would you recommend?
 
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Re: duped on wattage...

I think if you want a 100-watt head, get a 100-watt head, especially if you do plan on using it for gigging and band practice. I don't see what's wrong with using a full-size amp in this scenario. Do you *need* 100 watts to sound big, loud, and chunky enough? Nope, but if you can afford 100-watts, why settle?

I guess what everyone is saying is that a good 20-30 watt head tube head through a nice 4x12, the low-end (and volume) would be worlds apart from your current modeling 1x10 30-watt combo, not to be disrespectful, and it might get you closer to what you're looking for than what your current amp does.

I also agree with everyone advising you against going overboard with the low-end. If you're expecting "car subwoofer" kinda lows from a guitar amp, you might be in for a disappointment. "Fat and chunky" in guitar tone has its limits before it starts becoming detrimental to the band mix, I agree with everyone in that.

But I do believe that a well-voiced quad of 6L6's through a nice 4x12 cab pumps out a different kind of cleaner, pristine, more 3D kind of low-end (compared to say, a pair of 6V6's or EL84's through smaller cabs) that can still fit a band mix if you stay tasteful and mindful that guitar tone is not the only thing that's important in a whole-band mix.

:)
 
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Re: duped on wattage...

vinta9e said:
TL;DR.

If you want watts per dollar, buy a clothes iron.
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Sonic energy face melting, not radiant energy face melting. ;)

$2749 is a lot for an iron that can only melt one at a time... A 120 watt amp, potentially thousands! Lol
 
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Re: duped on wattage...

Rex_Rocker said:
I think if you want a 100-watt head, get a 100-watt head, especially if you do plan on using it for gigging and band practice. I don't see what's wrong with using a full-size amp in this scenario. Do you *need* 100 watts to sound big, loud, and chunky enough? Nope, but if you can afford 100-watts, why settle?

I guess what everyone is saying is that a good 20-30 watt head tube head through a nice 4x12, the low-end (and volume) would be worlds apart from your current modeling 1x10 30-watt combo, not to be disrespectful, and it might get you closer to what you're looking for than what your current amp does.

I also agree with everyone advising you against is about going overboard with the low-end. If you're expecting "car subwoofer" kinda lows from a guitar amp, you might be in for a disappointment. "Fat and chunky" in guitar tone has its limits before it starts becoming detrimental to the band mix, I agree with everyone in that.

But I do believe that a well-voiced quad of 6L6's through a nice 4x12 cab pumps out a different kind of cleaner, pristine, more 3D kind of low-end (compared to say, a pair of 6V6's or EL84's through smaller cabs) that can still fit a band mix if you stay tasteful and mindful that guitar tone is not the only thing that's important in a whole-band mix.

:)
Click to expand...

I think everything you just said makes perfect sense.... Why settle :D
 
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