2ndhandband
New member
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
Wait... what? You don't want vocal intelligibility?
Wait... what? You don't want vocal intelligibility?
E standard vs alternate tunings
- Thread starter Willy25
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Johnny the Kid
Shaunofthedeadologist
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
I don't want vocals to be the only thing I hear and a lot of times, they sacrifice guitar volume for drums and vocal intelligibility. Bass is usually the first to go too.
I don't want vocals to be the only thing I hear and a lot of times, they sacrifice guitar volume for drums and vocal intelligibility. Bass is usually the first to go too.
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
And I like hearing the bass in there. Some of my favorite album tones are those with a strong deep crisp bass, but yeah they've all but removed bass from much low-tuned metal.
And I like hearing the bass in there. Some of my favorite album tones are those with a strong deep crisp bass, but yeah they've all but removed bass from much low-tuned metal.
2ndhandband
New member
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
I don't know how far along you are in your audio tech training, but they're mostly sacrificing those guitars and basses not for the vox but for the drums. A very popular way to mix these days is to compress ever living hell out of the whole drumkit and push it up as loud as the PA will allow, then try making everything else fit in around the edges. Basically what you get in those mixes is a lot of drums (which sound terrible because they're squashed as hell and running right on the edge of square wave) and a lot of vocals (which are often muddy and hard to understand) and all the other sounds are little. It's a horrible, horrible sound and I hope it goes out of vogue very soon.
I've seen it countless times, but I won't talk about bands I've worked with. I like to use Nightwish as an example because I was a paying customer and therefore feel free to bash with abandon. I was there to see Sonata Arctica and my daughter was there for Nightwish. The house engineer as per usual mixed the opening band (Delain) and the primary support (Sonata Arctica). He had both bands sounding fantastic; the guy was very good. Then Nightwish's guy (who apparently has been with them forever) took over and everything went to hell. The problems were numerous... you couldn't even tell whether the band played well or not. But he could have fixed 80% of it by just pulling the drumkit back a few db. The drums were pushed so hard they were distorting. You could hear the lead vocals well enough but forget articulation; I was kinda excited to hear Floor Jansen sing live but jesus if you didn't know the words already you'd have no idea what the hell she was saying. Backing vox were almost entirely lost in the mix. The guitar and bass were trampling all over one another's territory; a classic case of two guys just trying to get the biggest of all possible sounds out of their respective cabinets with no regard to the overall ensemble sound. The result was the bass and guitar both were a muddy, messy wash of sound and it was lottery whether you could tell what either one of them was playing. Again, pulling the drums back would have helped although it wouldn't have solved the problem. It was annoying to listen to. I was there with another soundman and he walked out and sat in the lobby about halfway through because he couldn't stand to hear it anymore, and if I hadn't been in there with my eight year old I'd have probably been with him. There was this funny looking bearded guy playing bagpipes and a few acoustic instruments... he was the only articulate thing on the whole damn stage.
I don't know how far along you are in your audio tech training, but they're mostly sacrificing those guitars and basses not for the vox but for the drums. A very popular way to mix these days is to compress ever living hell out of the whole drumkit and push it up as loud as the PA will allow, then try making everything else fit in around the edges. Basically what you get in those mixes is a lot of drums (which sound terrible because they're squashed as hell and running right on the edge of square wave) and a lot of vocals (which are often muddy and hard to understand) and all the other sounds are little. It's a horrible, horrible sound and I hope it goes out of vogue very soon.
I've seen it countless times, but I won't talk about bands I've worked with. I like to use Nightwish as an example because I was a paying customer and therefore feel free to bash with abandon. I was there to see Sonata Arctica and my daughter was there for Nightwish. The house engineer as per usual mixed the opening band (Delain) and the primary support (Sonata Arctica). He had both bands sounding fantastic; the guy was very good. Then Nightwish's guy (who apparently has been with them forever) took over and everything went to hell. The problems were numerous... you couldn't even tell whether the band played well or not. But he could have fixed 80% of it by just pulling the drumkit back a few db. The drums were pushed so hard they were distorting. You could hear the lead vocals well enough but forget articulation; I was kinda excited to hear Floor Jansen sing live but jesus if you didn't know the words already you'd have no idea what the hell she was saying. Backing vox were almost entirely lost in the mix. The guitar and bass were trampling all over one another's territory; a classic case of two guys just trying to get the biggest of all possible sounds out of their respective cabinets with no regard to the overall ensemble sound. The result was the bass and guitar both were a muddy, messy wash of sound and it was lottery whether you could tell what either one of them was playing. Again, pulling the drums back would have helped although it wouldn't have solved the problem. It was annoying to listen to. I was there with another soundman and he walked out and sat in the lobby about halfway through because he couldn't stand to hear it anymore, and if I hadn't been in there with my eight year old I'd have probably been with him. There was this funny looking bearded guy playing bagpipes and a few acoustic instruments... he was the only articulate thing on the whole damn stage.
LostPossumGuitars
New member
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
I personally prefer standard. But Mark Tremonti is one of my favorites and i don't think he is ever in standard tuning.
I personally prefer standard. But Mark Tremonti is one of my favorites and i don't think he is ever in standard tuning.
Clint 55
OH THE DOUBLE THICK GLAZE!
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
I loves me a power slop mix. Standard tuning, Eb, D, C#, it's all good. I like a lot of grunge sounds in standard or Eb where the bass uses passive pickups and cuts through the mix with a bit of natural overdrive. But I think downtuning sounds great too, particularly with active pickups. You can really hear the fundamental bass frequencies among all the other highs going on from the drums and guitar. I also like bands with one guitar. It frees the bass up to take up more space and also makes for way more interesting guitar and bass counterpoint possibilities. Here's a mix where they're in C# with active pickups. The guitar solo at 7:50 sounds bad ass just against the downtuned bass.
I loves me a power slop mix. Standard tuning, Eb, D, C#, it's all good. I like a lot of grunge sounds in standard or Eb where the bass uses passive pickups and cuts through the mix with a bit of natural overdrive. But I think downtuning sounds great too, particularly with active pickups. You can really hear the fundamental bass frequencies among all the other highs going on from the drums and guitar. I also like bands with one guitar. It frees the bass up to take up more space and also makes for way more interesting guitar and bass counterpoint possibilities. Here's a mix where they're in C# with active pickups. The guitar solo at 7:50 sounds bad ass just against the downtuned bass.
Obsessive Compulsive
New member
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
By the way you describe it you make it sound as if the music were very complex/ intricate that only Berklee graduate are able to play. In fact it's just a bunch of power chords (diads, 1-5) and screams and growls from 1982 Kreator/ Chuck Schuldiner era that paint me the picture of morning constipation.
And that guitar solo sounds like it's a rip off of Kirk Hammett's solo in Master of Puppets.
By the way you describe it you make it sound as if the music were very complex/ intricate that only Berklee graduate are able to play. In fact it's just a bunch of power chords (diads, 1-5) and screams and growls from 1982 Kreator/ Chuck Schuldiner era that paint me the picture of morning constipation.
And that guitar solo sounds like it's a rip off of Kirk Hammett's solo in Master of Puppets.
2ndhandband
New member
2ndhandband
New member
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
And I agree... see my above post. I'm saying you don't need to sacrifice vocal intelligibility to hear the bass. Mostly the culprit is the mindset that we need drums like rolling thunder and to hell with everything else.
Modern bass players would do well to reconsider their choice of tone as well. A hard rock mix is tough to cut through and the big, thunderous, lower midsy sound favored by modern rock bassists is the worst of all possible choices.
And I agree... see my above post. I'm saying you don't need to sacrifice vocal intelligibility to hear the bass. Mostly the culprit is the mindset that we need drums like rolling thunder and to hell with everything else.
Modern bass players would do well to reconsider their choice of tone as well. A hard rock mix is tough to cut through and the big, thunderous, lower midsy sound favored by modern rock bassists is the worst of all possible choices.
Clint 55
OH THE DOUBLE THICK GLAZE!
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
Haha. I just use that term power slop in a general way because I think it's funny.
Haha. I just use that term power slop in a general way because I think it's funny.
2ndhandband
New member
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
Just saying dude... slop in a mix is never a good thing. Clear, crisp, and articulate. If the audience can't hear all instruments with the same clarity they could from a recording I feel like I'm failing...
Just saying dude... slop in a mix is never a good thing. Clear, crisp, and articulate. If the audience can't hear all instruments with the same clarity they could from a recording I feel like I'm failing...
dystrust
Well-known member
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
Opeth's Blackwater Park taught me that heaviness is a vibe, not a tuning. That album is heavy a ***k, and it's mostly in E standard with a couple songs in drop-D.
I play in either Eb or drop-C# because it helps me avoid a few difficult keys as a vocalist. I don't see a reason to tune any lower.
Opeth's Blackwater Park taught me that heaviness is a vibe, not a tuning. That album is heavy a ***k, and it's mostly in E standard with a couple songs in drop-D.
I play in either Eb or drop-C# because it helps me avoid a few difficult keys as a vocalist. I don't see a reason to tune any lower.
2ndhandband
New member
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
I'm guessing you mean 2k, not 22? ;-)
You've got the right idea although I try to avoid slicing such a broad frequency band. For almost any bassist I'll take a hard cut with a center frequency somewhere between about 250-350. Taking out some of those lower mids allows me to goose the hell out of the lows... the stuff that's mostly hitting the subs... without inducing mud.
For most bass players I also have to goose the higher frequencies a little. For bass a presence boost is lower than you think... generally somewhere between 1k and 2.5k. It'll usually be pretty narrow as well. For a really snappy sounding instrument like a P bass I can often skip that step. I'm a minimal EQ guy; the less I have to monkey with stuff the better and I'm only willing to bend over so far trying to polish a turd. Want a good mix? Give me good sounds from the stage.
I'm guessing you mean 2k, not 22? ;-)
You've got the right idea although I try to avoid slicing such a broad frequency band. For almost any bassist I'll take a hard cut with a center frequency somewhere between about 250-350. Taking out some of those lower mids allows me to goose the hell out of the lows... the stuff that's mostly hitting the subs... without inducing mud.
For most bass players I also have to goose the higher frequencies a little. For bass a presence boost is lower than you think... generally somewhere between 1k and 2.5k. It'll usually be pretty narrow as well. For a really snappy sounding instrument like a P bass I can often skip that step. I'm a minimal EQ guy; the less I have to monkey with stuff the better and I'm only willing to bend over so far trying to polish a turd. Want a good mix? Give me good sounds from the stage.
Re: E standard vs alternate tunings
Well that's true, and I agree constant blast-beats and constant flutter-kick does too often crowd the mix and force the vocals up.
Still though, I'd more enjoy many albums if the vocals were backed down a bit,,and in most cases they'd still be heard well,,,,,,,,,,just my opinion.
Chris Barnes is a perfect example of what I'm saying.
I'm a big fan of him and SFU, as well as old CC,,,,,,,,,but with that style of vocals it's not needed to dominate the mix so much (talking more about the studio albums).
Mostly I'm referring to gutteral death metal style and black-metal vocals,,,,,,but it's just as bad or worse with hardcore and stuff like Slipknot's Iowa for example.
Well that's true, and I agree constant blast-beats and constant flutter-kick does too often crowd the mix and force the vocals up.
Still though, I'd more enjoy many albums if the vocals were backed down a bit,,and in most cases they'd still be heard well,,,,,,,,,,just my opinion.
Chris Barnes is a perfect example of what I'm saying.
I'm a big fan of him and SFU, as well as old CC,,,,,,,,,but with that style of vocals it's not needed to dominate the mix so much (talking more about the studio albums).
Mostly I'm referring to gutteral death metal style and black-metal vocals,,,,,,but it's just as bad or worse with hardcore and stuff like Slipknot's Iowa for example.
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