Eb tuning = bad idea?

[papersoul]

Hey guys,

I had a discussion with a friend who recommended I go back to standard tuning with the occasional dropped D. His reasoning is that the guitar is designed to be tuned to standard E concert pitch. Once you deviate from this to slack tunings or lower tunings you cause issue with intonation that will always exist. He mentioned bands such as Van Halan and Alice in Chains who were known for using these lower tunings, not to mention the current crop of modern bands. Apparently these bands have techs who are probably pulling their hair out trying to keep their guitars intonated correctly.

I had my LP set up in Eb and commonly use dropped C# and never really thought about this till getting my PRS McCarty which is in standard E. Now, I think the longer scale of the PRS adds to the accuracy of intonation so I am not sure this is a fair test.

I kind of assumed that I am fine assuming I go up a string gauage when setting up a guitar in a lower tuning and intonate properly.

My band switched to Eb because we noticed it made out sound warmer and deeper, plus the singer sounds better in this tuning.

I am a little confused and worried.

One final thought on setting intonation. Do you compare the open note to the 12th fret note or harmonic? Do you compare the 12th fret note to the harmonic?

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

Don't worry about it. just slap on some thicker strings and intonate your guitar to the new string and tuning. A longer scale instrument will sound better than a shorter scale instrument in lower tunings, but Eb really isn't low enough to cause any problems that a tweak to you intonation won't fix.

BTW, all guitars will never be truly intonated (unless they have the Buzz Feiten Tuning system), even in A440 standard tuning.

 

[Shnook]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

I've got a few guitars I keep in Eb and I've never had a problem with intontation. I just reset the intonation when I went to Eb and that was it. Now if your gonna be switching back and forth from Eb and Standard, you may run into issues.

 

[papersoul]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

Don't worry about it. just slap on some thicker strings and intonate your guitar to the new string and tuning. A longer scale instrument will sound better than a shorter scale instrument in lower tunings, but Eb really isn't low enough to cause any problems that a tweak to you intonation won't fix.

BTW, all guitars will never be truly intonated (unless they have the Buzz Feiten Tuning system), even in A440 standard tuning.

Actually the Earvana nut does the same thing as the Buzz system but cheaper.

Thanks!

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

Actually the Earvana nut does the same thing as the Buzz system but cheaper.

Thanks!

Kinda. The Earvana does a great job of making the guitar sound sweeter when playing fretted notes combined with open notes. Once you start barring or playing nothing but fretted notes, the Earvana goes out of the eqation. The Feiten System, while expensive, works all over the fretboard. It's great for jazz guys and others that play big note clusters and want to have everything in tune.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

:bsflag:

In 12 years of luthierie, I´m hearing this for the first time, and I believe not a word of it

While guitars are built "within" a certain specification, any decent axe (read "not some POS Chinese shebang") will hold up to different tunings just fine if set up to accomodate the tuning.

1. The intonation gets set depending on the tuning, removing possible issues is why
2. The 2 techs in mention, particularly Van Heiniken´s with Eddies "1/4 step down" schtick, have to deal with a whole multitude of different tunings at EVERY SHOW. Without a good strobe tuner (which I assume they have), you´re finished in that situation. It´s the constant variation that drives them nuts, not the tuning itself.

Btw, a longer scale does NOT make intonation more accurate, only a good setup does. If anything, a longer scale increases the chance of positioning the bridge falsely when building, increasing the possibility of completing an unplayable guitar

I can understand the intonation argument on an Acoustic, though. But even then only on a flat-top with a one piece saddle

Overall, it really reminds me of a discussion I had while just starting out with a buddy that refused to let me play his guitars with my picks because they said "bass" on the sales box.

 

[ChrisB]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

Just think of all the great guitar music recorded using eb tuning.
Hendrix, SRV, Van Halen, Jake E Lee, Malmsteen ;], Nuno...etc.etc all favoured tuning down a half step and the strings used varied from 8's to 13's.

If you like the sound just go for it.

 

[7th Hell]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

I prefer Eb to standard. The tone gets chunkier, Screamin' Demons sound better (Lynch- who the pup was designed for tunes to Eb), and the guitar is easier to play (bends, pulll offs, trills...) Never noticed any intonation problems- you might if you try tuning to B on a six string. But the tuning headaches would probably drive ya nutz first!

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

I'm aware that a longer scale soes not make intonation more accurate, but with all thing being equal, a longer scale instrument will have more clarity and string seperation than a short scale instrument. I find that these attributes, along with increased string tension, make for a more musical (to my ears) sound than a short scale instrument when tuning low.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

.....Once you start barring or playing nothing but fretted notes, the Earvana goes out of the eqation. ....

Not entirely. The earvana system, like Feiten, is an adjustment of the scale length (not sure if Earvana also uses tuning offsets, but I don´t think so). This in turn affects intonation, which as we know affects the whole string. So it still affects the strings when all of them get fretted, just not as pronounced as the (IMO More professional) Feiten solution.

But I definitely agree that the "buzz effect" is more noticeable

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

Not entirely. The earvana system, like Feiten, is an adjustment of the scale length (not sure if Earvana also uses tuning offsets, but I don´t think so). This in turn affects intonation, which as we know affects the whole string. So it still affects the strings when all of them get fretted, just not as pronounced as the (IMO More professional) Feiten solution.

But I definitely agree that the "buzz effect" is more noticeable

Wow, I learned something new today! :cool3:

 

[papersoul]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

Kinda. The Earvana does a great job of making the guitar sound sweeter when playing fretted notes combined with open notes. Once you start barring or playing nothing but fretted notes, the Earvana goes out of the eqation. The Feiten System, while expensive, works all over the fretboard. It's great for jazz guys and others that play big note clusters and want to have everything in tune.

Maybe not as big an issue for blues, rock, and metal?

 

[papersoul]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

Zerberus, thank you brother! I feel much better and will do as I please with tuning!! I prefer the tonal character of EB so that is where I am headed.

What Benjy 26 said about the clarity is what I also notice. I had a Hamer Mirage (humbucker equipped) that was a 25.5" scale guitar that was clear as a bell! I just wasn't crazy about how it played so now I have a PRS which has a slightly longer scale than an LP but gives that added clarity.

But, an LP with it's limitations still has a very identifiable and desirable tone and I love it non the less. Althought this is an unfair test...I was comparing my LP with 11s in EB to my PRS with 10s in E Standard.

I think I may have to set up my PRS with 11s in EB also.

Since my band was playing so much in dropped C#, I had the guitar intonated with the low E down to C# with a .54 gauge string and seemd fine. But, I do notice the calrity thing with longer scale guitars like the PRS.

 

[Bludave]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

I use a variety of tunings on both electric and acoustic. My acoustic guitars have never been intonated to accomodate a particular tuning, and they perform fine. Electric guitars are easier to intonate than acoustic. On occasionas I drop down a ½ step and don't intonate the guitar and again it performs fine.
The main reason why most people (Hendrix, SRV) tuned downs was it was eaxier to SING in that key, it had nothing to do with playing!

 

[Benjy_26]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

Maybe not as big an issue for blues, rock, and metal?

If you hear your guitar out of tune and not intonated even when it is by standard methods, you might want to look into the Feiten system.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

If you hear your guitar out of tune and not intonated even when it is by standard methods, you might want to look into the Feiten system.

:bigok:

It´s not something that every needs or even wants. But if you´re finicky about intonation and "in-tuneness" when playing, It may be for you. JohnJohn is an authorized retrofitter IIRC, I´ll probably be taking the course soon as well

 

[Blue Calx]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

papersoul, give your buddy one of these for me: :fing25:

HA HA, nah, he's just trying to help. But really, any intonation issue you may have with an altered tuning, would take, like 5 minutes to correct.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

Papersoul, Zerb is right, although the preset intonation on the McCarty bridge was designed for 9's or 10's in standard tuning. Tuning halfstep down, and re-intonating will sound fine, but not 100% perfect. It gets worse as you go down halfstep AND drop your low string. At that point, the preset saddles aren't where they would be, if individually adjusted. That was the whole reason I installed the Tonepros adjustable bridge on the McCarty I use for alternate tunings. Right now, I've got 11's tuned down halfstep with a dropped low note. It's intonated perfectly for that and sounds great, but wouldn't if I'd kept the stock bridge on it.

If I were you, I'd try to keep your McCarty tuned closer to standard, and use your Gibson for the alternate tunings. Either that, or get a PRS or Tonepros bridge. Keep in mind, they come unslotted, so you've got to have a luthier cut the saddles + the high price of the bridge....$132

 

[theboatcandream]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

Your friend is a silly person. Just intonate your bridge and you'll be fine, no matter what the tunning is. If it's an extremely radical tuning, you might have to make a truss rod adjustment. You might have to get a new nut if you're using bass strings, but only because they need to be a bit higher. For Eb though? No worries. Don't even bother paying a tech, just grab a tuner and a screwdriver and go for it.

 

[Wattage]

Re: Eb tuning = bad idea?

I didn't read any responses but that is an absolute load of crap.