Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

[Hank-]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

^ Hey uOpt, those would be specifically the TC Rack & floor units(yes G-System I'm pointing at you), Rocktron & Digitech(current lineup), maybe Eventide(never looked into these) as well that fit most of the stuff you pointed out. The "input to loop gain & mix when coming back part I didn't understand properly lol, with the gt10 I can select the type of fx loop, the send level, return level, the mix level(if using a parallel setting for the S/R block) and overall -10dB or +4dB output level for the unit itself along with a output level, and there is an input gain & presence level for the guitar input too. The FX chain can be re-routed in any order too. The GT PRO I know has two S/R loops, place wherever needed in the chain, I'd love to have that extra loop in a floor multifx unit. It's also got some more level controls which I'm not familiar with, but I bet it has what your asking for. It's odd that it isn't all that famous, I don't really hear much about it, maybe because it's too complex :scratchch

The Axe FX stuff probably offers everthing, I think if even someone used it as an FX unit alone then it's quite stunning, I think it has strobe tuner accuracy now too. It's so expensive though, but I guess worth it if compared to other fx only units in the rack form.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

I'll check all that stuff out, Hank.

I guess what I want is less built in effects (but not zero) and more independent loops. Of course that's expensive since external plugs are a major cost factor here, both for the plug hardware and the internal routing points. I'd be willing to pay for it, though.

 

[BrianS.]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

When I read "amp suck out", I pictured a typhoonigator-like creature sucking notes out of the speakers of a marshall stack:

 

[James Rock]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

If you can afford it a mix of rack effects (in a line level loop) and pedals (in seperate midi control TB loops with at least one buffer in the chain) all MIDI controlled would be the best. This is what of the pro touring guys that use alot of FX do but they have guitar techs setting it up and maintaining it. You can go a mixture of analog pedals and controllable digital pedals like TC, Eventide, Strymon etc or the AXE-FX plus a few analog drive pedals. If money is limitless options are too if not then sacrifices have to be made.

 

[IMENATOR]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

I don't like modelers to much myself and don't have enough money for big amp heads so I stick with the pedals. I was thinking of some kind of pedal switching as you said, maybe you wanna try something like the boss line selector. I think it is like having 2 selectable signal paths, each one can have all the pedals you need and just flip back and forth with one single stomp on the pedal.

Guitar --> A in -> Reverb -> Chorus -> A out -> Delay
Guitar --> B in -> Drive pedal -> B out -> Delay (the same one)

I think it even allows you to have A/B/ByPass mode to have a dry signal path.

 

[mantis]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

I've the gt10 too, along with a wah, analog delay, tuner & chorus/flange stompboxes. I was able to get about ~90% of my amps tone when using the gt10 in 4CM but it took like a week for me to get the levels right & start using the low input of the amp to get the amount of hiss down to acceptable levels. The input/output buffers on it are fantastic I think, the send/return on it may or may not play along with certain amps.

Here is how I got mine to work:
I started with -10dB output level from the global system settings instead of the +4dB. From there it depends upon where you want the output level knob on the gt10 to be, meaning either fully clockwise or somewhere inbetween. After that playing with the Send/Return levels, starting with the Send Level to get unity gain for the guitar & then the Return Level to get unity gain for the amp did the trick for me. Once that is done, its important to keep the Mid Frequency value in the global system settings the same as that of the Patch/Master setting,(the patch EQ under the Master menu also allows you to select a mid freq for the patch). The default value is 800Hz for both, I had to change it to somewhere lower for my amp, you may need to do the opposite. That was about it, using good quality cables helps a lot especially for the ones that are going into the amp's fx loop. I have the Planet Waves American stage cables, these are low capacitance & are great for long runs like 4CM usage, not uber expensive either.
[EDIT: I forgot to mention something important, the Lines/Phones output select is the key to get the gt10 to work with an amp, make sure it's set to this mode & disable the preamp block entirely as in the led on the preamp button must not light up, and the preamp mode in this disabled preamp block needs to be set to single mono mode(not dual mono or L/R). Changing it to Dual mode even when disabled cause the sound to change due to the parallel chain created because of it.]

Well, you could just run it straight between the amp & guitar or in the amp's loop instead of 4CM to determine the amount of tone suckage present there, if its too much for you then perhaps its time to start collecting individual pedals and a switcher. Anyways, i did get something like this to keep the cable mess(I have 4 cables going to the amp, one of them for the amp control) when using the gt10.
View attachment 45723

Excellent , I'll try all of that. I don't use the Line/Phones output as I have mine setup in Combo Return. I have tried JC120 return and Stack Return and I think the Combo return is correct. I'll give the Line/Phones setting a run for the sheer hell of it.
As far as the Send and return levels , where are you adjusting them? On your amp? Or in the GT?

 

[mantis]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

I don't like modelers to much myself and don't have enough money for big amp heads so I stick with the pedals. I was thinking of some kind of pedal switching as you said, maybe you wanna try something like the boss line selector. I think it is like having 2 selectable signal paths, each one can have all the pedals you need and just flip back and forth with one single stomp on the pedal.

Guitar --> A in -> Reverb -> Chorus -> A out -> Delay
Guitar --> B in -> Drive pedal -> B out -> Delay (the same one)

I think it even allows you to have A/B/ByPass mode to have a dry signal path.

Thanks man , I'll check that out.

 

[Hank-]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

Excellent , I'll try all of that. I don't use the Line/Phones output as I have mine setup in Combo Return. I have tried JC120 return and Stack Return and I think the Combo return is correct. I'll give the Line/Phones setting a run for the sheer hell of it.
As far as the Send and return levels , where are you adjusting them? On your amp? Or in the GT?

Well, I found that the output modes besides Line/Phones mode have some factory EQ going on to adjust for where you plug the GT into. To me that EQ was made for a specific amp that boss experimented with when building the gt and when used with my amp it would add extra midrange & bass that shouldn't be there. So I just use the Lines/Phones with cabs sim off to get a flat unEQ'd sound to start with but with nothing plugged into the headphone jack of the gt10. Having something in there activates speaker compensation EQ on all outputs which cannot be turned off without unplugging what ever was plugged into the headphone jack of the gt10.

I retried today starting from scratch to see how much I can simply the 4CM setup setps. So I'll just type them out for ya & see if you can do it the same way. Before I start though, the loop needs to be a serial loop on the amp. It's a bonus if your amp's master volume is located after the amp's FX loop, because then you get to control the overall volume of the amp directly on the amp. If not then the overall volume will be set depending on what global output choice you made for level(+4dB or -10dB) and the position of the output level knob on the left of the gt10 screen. It's another bonus if the Amp's FX loop has a Level control knob as well, it helps to achieve unity gain quicker. So moving to my way of setting the levels, with -10dB global setting & output knob set at noon and Mid Freq value set to 500Hz for both global & master EQ's:

Step 1. Initialise a patch. Turn OFF the Noise Gates(NS1 & NS2). Plug one cable into the GT Send and connect this to the input of the amp (here I'd prefer using the low input of the amp if it has one). Connect another cable from the guitar to the gt10 input. Turn the S/R loop ON in the Gt10. Adjust the S/R loop Send Level to gain unity so that it's level matches to that of when going straight from the guitar to amp. If there's too much high end present at this stage then lower the Input Presence in the global settings on the gt10.

[It's important to understand that the gt is a buffered pedal so there will be more high end in the signal, like there would be if you had a buffered pedal in between your guitar and amp. To counter it you can use high capacitance cables to an extent going to the amp's input.]

Step 2. Press the EXP pedal in the heel position. Turn the Amp's FX loop ON(if it's always on, then ok). Connect cables between GT mono OUT & amp's Return and GT Return & Amp's Send. Slowly start moving the EXP pedal to it's toe position. In case the volume is very low at the EXP pedal toe position then your amp needs a +4dB signal in it's loop, so put the EXP pedal back in heel position and change the global output setting to +4dB in the gt10. If you had to change to +4dB then recheck step 1, you may need to lower the S/R loop Send Level in the gt.

Step 3. Now adjust the S/R Return Level to get unity gain with the gt10 knob set to noon(12 o'clock position). If your amp has a switch to turn the Amp's loop ON/OFF then you'll be flipping that to know the difference or if it doesn't have a switch then yank the two cables out from the amp's FX loop to know what Step 1. sounds like previously above. You may need to turn the output level knob on the gt10 slightly +/- in either directions at this point as well, it alters the tone a little bit.

That's about it, don't touch the Input Gain setting for the guitar in the system menu for the gt10 unless you are switching guitars and make use of the low input on the amp instead of the high input to keep the hiss and harshness down. This is how I setup the gt10 to work in 4CM with my amp, my Send level is 110, Return Level is 100, Input presence is ~-14dB, Input Gain is 0dB, output level knob is at noon, global output is at -10dB, Mid Frequency value for Global & Master(Patch) EQ's is 500Hz and everything else is at default level. Luckily my amp has a level knob on its back for the FX loop, so getting unity gain between the GT Out and Amp Return was faster & simpler for me by leaving that knob at noon which is unity gain for mine.
You may need two different S/R loop settings on the gt10 for your clean & drive channel on the Amp, so you will still need to determine what those levels are for each channel of the amp. You can split those between two patches or use 4 assigns to change the values of Send & Return Level twice within a patch with the Ctrl Switch.

Hope this helps, it should apply to other units as well in a way apart from the boss stuff but with different settings ofcourse, the steps would still remain the same for me to follow though.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

I've used midi controlled racks in the past, and all I learned was that it killed my back moving all that stuff, and all it took for the whole rig to be worthless was a messed up midi jack or cable. I really don't need 100 sounds.

I prefer the idea of sifting through pedals till I find ones I absolutely love, then sticking with them forever basically.
And, use a Voodoo PP2+ with good cabling. Just that into a great tube amp, which may include utilizing it's FX loop for delay or reverb. For great tone, that's the formula many of us gravitate toward.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

I've got an M13, and after what little messing around with it I have been able to do, an M9 would have suited me just as well. However, my intent for it is rather limited to begin with (use it live for early Thrash, maybe NOWBHM). I have a rack setup for recording that works just fine. IIRC they have the same available effects/pedal models, but the M9 seems more "live-friendly".

The M13 is geared more towards those who want the widest possible variety of pedals they can get in one box, each dedicated to its own switch. 12 switches means 12 pedals, with up to 4 effects running at once. However, you're still going to tap-dance if you want to turn off the crunch and turn the chorus and delay on at once, and that's even true with the M9.

The issue there is the individual switches.

Now, one could connect something like an ART X-15 via MIDI, and program one button on that to perform multiple functions of the M-unit.
However, it just seems odd to me to have a pedal controlling another pedal. That's the sort of thing I'd drag the rack along for.

But then, if you're only doing the home-thing, I suppose you could put the actual sound pedal (GT, L6, whatever) up on a table and stick the X-15 on the floor so tweaks don't involve bending over, which gets old.

 

[Kramer Guy]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

For the longest time, I was using a Digitech RP-50 , but ever since I installed a Eminence Texas Heat in my 1988 Fender Studio 85 combo , I got rid of that processor and decided to simplify my sound. Seeing that my band does mostly Blues with some Classic Rock thrown in, I've decided to start using a Danelectro T-Bone distortion along with a Fab Chorus pedal. To me, less is more and I'm glad I made the change .

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

I use the right tool for the job.

 

[ModAddict]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

On par with this question. I am a huge fan of analog pedals. How good are the pedals like that Carl Martin Octa-thing?

 

[MisterE]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

I use a Zoom G3 mostly for reverbs and delays and the fact that I can use headphones sans amp makes it a great late night practice tool. Although if i were to gig I would use pedals instead.

 

[mantis]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

Well, I found that the output modes besides Line/Phones mode have some factory EQ going on to adjust for where you plug the GT into. To me that EQ was made for a specific amp that boss experimented with when building the gt and when used with my amp it would add extra midrange & bass that shouldn't be there. So I just use the Lines/Phones with cabs sim off to get a flat unEQ'd sound to start with but with nothing plugged into the headphone jack of the gt10. Having something in there activates speaker compensation EQ on all outputs which cannot be turned off without unplugging what ever was plugged into the headphone jack of the gt10.

I retried today starting from scratch to see how much I can simply the 4CM setup setps. So I'll just type them out for ya & see if you can do it the same way. Before I start though, the loop needs to be a serial loop on the amp. It's a bonus if your amp's master volume is located after the amp's FX loop, because then you get to control the overall volume of the amp directly on the amp. If not then the overall volume will be set depending on what global output choice you made for level(+4dB or -10dB) and the position of the output level knob on the left of the gt10 screen. It's another bonus if the Amp's FX loop has a Level control knob as well, it helps to achieve unity gain quicker. So moving to my way of setting the levels, with -10dB global setting & output knob set at noon and Mid Freq value set to 500Hz for both global & master EQ's:

Step 1. Initialise a patch. Turn OFF the Noise Gates(NS1 & NS2). Plug one cable into the GT Send and connect this to the input of the amp (here I'd prefer using the low input of the amp if it has one). Connect another cable from the guitar to the gt10 input. Turn the S/R loop ON in the Gt10. Adjust the S/R loop Send Level to gain unity so that it's level matches to that of when going straight from the guitar to amp. If there's too much high end present at this stage then lower the Input Presence in the global settings on the gt10.

[It's important to understand that the gt is a buffered pedal so there will be more high end in the signal, like there would be if you had a buffered pedal in between your guitar and amp. To counter it you can use high capacitance cables to an extent going to the amp's input.]

Step 2. Press the EXP pedal in the heel position. Turn the Amp's FX loop ON(if it's always on, then ok). Connect cables between GT mono OUT & amp's Return and GT Return & Amp's Send. Slowly start moving the EXP pedal to it's toe position. In case the volume is very low at the EXP pedal toe position then your amp needs a +4dB signal in it's loop, so put the EXP pedal back in heel position and change the global output setting to +4dB in the gt10. If you had to change to +4dB then recheck step 1, you may need to lower the S/R loop Send Level in the gt.

Step 3. Now adjust the S/R Return Level to get unity gain with the gt10 knob set to noon(12 o'clock position). If your amp has a switch to turn the Amp's loop ON/OFF then you'll be flipping that to know the difference or if it doesn't have a switch then yank the two cables out from the amp's FX loop to know what Step 1. sounds like previously above. You may need to turn the output level knob on the gt10 slightly +/- in either directions at this point as well, it alters the tone a little bit.

That's about it, don't touch the Input Gain setting for the guitar in the system menu for the gt10 unless you are switching guitars and make use of the low input on the amp instead of the high input to keep the hiss and harshness down. This is how I setup the gt10 to work in 4CM with my amp, my Send level is 110, Return Level is 100, Input presence is ~-14dB, Input Gain is 0dB, output level knob is at noon, global output is at -10dB, Mid Frequency value for Global & Master(Patch) EQ's is 500Hz and everything else is at default level. Luckily my amp has a level knob on its back for the FX loop, so getting unity gain between the GT Out and Amp Return was faster & simpler for me by leaving that knob at noon which is unity gain for mine.
You may need two different S/R loop settings on the gt10 for your clean & drive channel on the Amp, so you will still need to determine what those levels are for each channel of the amp. You can split those between two patches or use 4 assigns to change the values of Send & Return Level twice within a patch with the Ctrl Switch.

Hope this helps, it should apply to other units as well in a way apart from the boss stuff but with different settings ofcourse, the steps would still remain the same for me to follow though.

I'm gonna try all of this and see if I can dial out the last bit of fuzzy sound I get. What I noticed when plugging in with my guitar directly into the amp vs the Gt-10 in the 4Cm is I get a gain boost. I don't want that to happen , I want the gain to stay exactly where I set it on the amp.
If I can get the Gt-10 to sound good using my amps preamps , I would be extremely happy.
Thank you for this post.

 

[mantis]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

Hank,
I want to thank you again for pointing out the Send and return level settings in the Gt-10. This is helping me clear up some of the fuzz that I could never dial out. The factoty setting of 100 100 don't work with my amp. I have them now at 80 90 and that seems to be much better. I'm gonna dial them in some more really trying to make the GT-10 transparent which I don't think is possible but I'm gonna get it as close as possible.

Thanks again man,

Dan

 

[agentzero12]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

I've tried and tried with Line 6. I think their sound quality to me sounds fake or exactly what it is , modeled after. I saw the M13 and it looks awesome. But I know I'll probably just end up selling or returning it as I have yet to find one single effect I like from Line 6. I have purchased many in the past as I read all the rave with their stuff. It's just not for me but the design of that M13 is. I wish Boss would make something like that.

Line 6 gear takes a lot of time to dial in. I have had a pod XT for 10 years and I love it. I can make it do almost anything I want and I always get compliments on tone. I actually just bought a vetta ii. Should be delivered this week. It gives me the options I wish I had on my XT but in a combo form. All I have to roll out now is an amp, controller, Ethernet cable, and a guitar.

It takes a ton of time to get right and some people just don't gel with it, but my money is best spent on modeling.

I have currently, and have had in the past both. You can't beat a good tube amp for pure tone, but when you want versatility and a lot of effects ( my pedal board is big enough to fit my lp) it gets to be a serious tap dance. Plus I have the constant issue of never stop tweaking my gear so the digital stuff suits me well. And I have used line 6 enough to make it sound good with minimal effort.

 

[Hank-]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

Hank,
I want to thank you again for pointing out the Send and return level settings in the Gt-10. This is helping me clear up some of the fuzz that I could never dial out. The factoty setting of 100 100 don't work with my amp. I have them now at 80 90 and that seems to be much better. I'm gonna dial them in some more really trying to make the GT-10 transparent which I don't think is possible but I'm gonna get it as close as possible.

Thanks again man,

Dan

Glad to help

With all the amount of options available in the gt10 to set level values at different places in the signal chain, it eventually starts to get very confusing as to where & what to adjust and at which point so as to get the 4CM to work at its best. It can be a real PITA if you start to adjust different stuff randomly again & again. Still, each different amp's fx loop has a certain impedance value, so some stuff just won't behave properly with some amps out there.

In Step 1. you were basically just looking to get the same gain level between the Send of the Gt10 and your amp's input. There should be nothing plugged into the FX loop of the amp, you should however turn the loop ON for the amp though, because some amps sound little different when their loop is activated.
In most cases unity gain is easy to achieve here, because at this point leaving aside the global setting for input gain and presence nothing else in the gt10 has any effect on your guitars sound on an initialised patch. This is basically where you find out how much transparent the gt10 is to your guitar's signal being sent to the amp. But considering it's a buffered signal, you need to adjust the input presence only to compensate for treble increase if necessary. Once you get the Send level adjusted to unity gain, it should not be adjusted again when trying to adjust the Return level.

So if this step itself doesn't yield satisfactory results then I wouldn't bother going further with the rest of the 4CM hookup IMO. But if it works then the rest is easy. Set the output knob on the gt10 to a fixed position(noon for me) and adjust the Return level for unity. Try not to move around too much when doing this, always check the sound of your amp at a fixed position, the sound changes depending on where you stand before/behind/side of it. Make sure the Noise Gates are turned OFF as well. And as usual cables can have an effect on your signal so having some clear sounding cables is always a good idea.

Apart from this GT stuff, I think you should get yourself a dedicated true analog delay & wah pedal. There is something very unique about these dedicated pedals that is very hard to get from a MFX unit to be happy with for me. I think you'll be much more happy adding these to your gt10 then using the ones built in. The wahs sound a little optical in the gt, although you can customize them and everything but there is something unique about a non-optical wah that's hard to replicate for me. The analog delay sim is ok in the gt10 but doesn't behave like my analog EHX memory boy delay. I never liked the reverb in there either, amp reverb all day from me. Also not a fan of the BBE Sonic Stomp either, don't use it when adjusting 4CM levels.
I'd suggest getting a used MXR Carbon Copy delay & some wah that you like the feel & sound of at a store, instead of getting the gt100, should end up alot less expensive too.

 

[jpistolas]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

All my effects are implemented in individual pedals with surface-mount devices on a bacon substrate. The FIR filters are coded by chickens, goats, and cows.

Angus or Jersey? There is a tone difference for sure.

 

[jpistolas]

Re: Effects Modeling Processor or Pedals , what do you use and why?

Honestly I feel like using that much equipment is GAS worthy of conseling. LOL! Me, I could never find ANY rack unit that covered what I needed it to. I may like the reverb or delay but hated the other fx and despised the stock EQ's. I won't even get started on the god awful distortions.

Reminds me of my first band. The lead player had a rack as tall as him but on stage no one heard him over my simple JCM900 & Rat pedal. For me, less is more. Unless you're a signed pro player who can have a roadie take care of this stuff for you it's just impractical.

When I do choose to use fx I go pedals. Easy enough to remove when not necessary. Would like to try the Line 6 M9 though. They sound interesting.

Sorry I'm no help in your dilemma but that fx rig just blew my mind. Haven't seen anyone use that much stuff since the 80's.