expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

[rickmurphy]

Hey All:

Seymour Duncan (SD) publishes tone charts with high-mid-low values for its pickups.

59s have relatively little midrange compared to other SD humbuckers. For example Pearly Gates and JB.

I have replaced the magnet on a 59 neck with an A4 magnet and replaced the magnet on an 59 bridge with an A3 magnet.

1. What is the expected change in mid values in the tone chart for each of the pickups, neck (A4) and bridge (A3)?

2. What is the expected change in high and low values in the tone chart for each of the pickups, neck (A4) and bridge (A3)?

3. Is it the magnet or the winding that makes the 59 lower in midrange?

4. How does SD measure the high-mid-low values it publishes in the charts? Can SD improve the charts by putting in some values?

5. If I sent the pickups to SD, can SD provide an accurate measure of the low-mid-high values in these pickups?

--
Rick

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Hey All:

Seymour Duncan (SD) publishes tone charts with high-mid-low values for its pickups.

59s have relatively little midrange compared to other SD humbuckers. For example Pearly Gates and JB.

I have replaced the magnet on a 59 neck with an A4 magnet and replaced the magnet on an 59 bridge with an A3 magnet.

1. What is the expected change in mid values in the tone chart for each of the pickups, neck (A4) and bridge (A3)?

2. What is the expected change in high and low values in the tone chart for each of the pickups, neck (A4) and bridge (A3)?

3. Is it the magnet or the winding that makes the 59 lower in midrange?

4. How does SD measure the high-mid-low values it publishes in the charts? Can SD improve the charts by putting in some values?

5. If I sent the pickups to SD, can SD provide an accurate measure of the low-mid-high values in these pickups?

--
Rick

Remember: Seymour doesn't love the sound of A3 or A4 in a humbucker.

Altho certain members of this forum and certain internet geeks do.

But not Seymour. And not me.

When I've put Roughcast Alnico 5 magnets in 59s and in Seth Lovers they sounded very similar...so it's the magnet and not so much the wind, IMO, that makes the biggest difference when I'm comparing humbuckers wound with almost identical 42 gauge wire and with almost identical DC resistance.

 

[NoOnesFang13]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I have a 59 with an a4 in a SG copy I have and it really evens out the EQ, it was still had a bit too much low end so I just put in Arties De-Mud mod (high pass filter if I remember correctly) and it sounds fantastic, been my favorite neck humbucker ive tried.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Seymour doesn't love the sound of A3 in a humbucker

Really? Yet, A3 was the mag used to make BOTH Joe Bonamassa p'up sets.

The "1959" set uses an extremely degaussed A2 mag in the neck position and an A3 in the bridge, where the "Skinner Burst" set uses fully-charged A3 for both p'ups.

So much for no love for A3s...

 

[AlexR]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I've had plenty of pickups with A3's.......probably have about 10, of all styles.

From some original p90's, to Bareknuckle singlecoils, to humbuckers and Tele pickups.
Great pickups all. Although they take some more dialling in to be sure and the mag itself takes about 2 weeks to fully settle into the pickup if others have been in there first, so the impatient will probably not have a great time as a swapper.

The Duncan 59 is a pickup that deals well with mag swaps. I hated every one I owned with the A5. The A3 worked best in the neck and the A4 in the bridge. Gave the bridge more mids and kept the lows. The A3 neck kept the highs and added mids and removed lows to my ears. Just what the doc ordered in each position.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Really? Yet, A3 was the mag used to make BOTH Joe Bonamassa p'up sets.

The "1959" set uses an extremely degaussed A2 mag in the neck position and an A3 in the bridge, where the "Skinner Burst" set uses fully-charged A3 for both p'ups.

So much for no love for A3s...

Seymour wouldn't use them himself.

He makes that kind of thing by request but his earliest designs (59's, Seths, Antiquities, JB's, Alnico 2 Tapped Tele Hot, etc.) are the one's he prefers and uses himself.

I know you like those weak A3 pickups. Enjoy yourself.

But I sure don't like them and I don't know any pros personally who use them. None of my friends and none of the professionals I know.

With a few exceptions, it's mostly just non professional internet experts who I see raving about alnico 3 & 4.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Hey All:

Seymour Duncan (SD) publishes tone charts with high-mid-low values for its pickups.

59s have relatively little midrange compared to other SD humbuckers. For example Pearly Gates and JB.

I have replaced the magnet on a 59 neck with an A4 magnet and replaced the magnet on an 59 bridge with an A3 magnet.

1. What is the expected change in mid values in the tone chart for each of the pickups, neck (A4) and bridge (A3)?

2. What is the expected change in high and low values in the tone chart for each of the pickups, neck (A4) and bridge (A3)?

3. Is it the magnet or the winding that makes the 59 lower in midrange?

4. How does SD measure the high-mid-low values it publishes in the charts? Can SD improve the charts by putting in some values?

5. If I sent the pickups to SD, can SD provide an accurate measure of the low-mid-high values in these pickups?

--
Rick

Those charts are a rough ballpark of the curve you might hear. One problem with those tone charts is often what distinguishes some pickups from each other happens in the spaces between B-M-T. There's no stable standard for measuring, so everyone will hear something different than what those charts indicate. If you hit the strings hard or soft, or raise or lower the pickup, or raise or lower the filister screws, all that will alter that curve. A 59 in a particular wood through a particular amp set a particular way could completely contradict those tone charts. So they are not an absolute measure of frequency response and aren't meaningful other than a ballpark relative to each other. So if you swap a 59 for a JB, the delta between those tone charts is only roughly what you might experience.

Also, regarding who uses what magnets - of the professionals I've known in the business, I'm not convinced the players always know what is actually in their guitars, though their tech does. In my experience, quite often the pro players are brought different equipment and try guitars and amps until they hear what they are after and say, "That one." Even when Bonamassa was choosing the pickups for his series, they did it as a blind test.

Just try them and go by the sound. You will not be able to accurately predict what the difference will be beforehand, ever, really.

 

[AlexR]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Seymour wouldn't use them himself.

But I sure don't like them and I don't know any pros personally who use them. None of my friends and none of the professionals I know.
With a few exceptions, it's mostly just non professional internet experts who I see raving about alnico 3 & 4.

So none of them own vintage p90's or PAF's then???

Cos I see a LOT of guys raving about their vintage p90's, and a good portion of those early to mid 50's p90's are A3's. Even into 1957 the A3 mags continued as evidenced by my original 1957 p90 harness. Then there are the PAF's where there is good chance a high preponderance of PAF's come with A4's - theses stats according to the samples of real P90's & PAFs examined by ReWind.

And the BKP Apache strat singles are A3, and I know a few people including Crusty and myself on this forum that like them.

And finally, since when does being a professional mean that your opinion on tone suddenly gets 'validity'. I mean is there a $$ earned threshold where you suddenly transition......and what happens then - the sky suddenly turns to angels and rainbows and the unicorns start running about and suddenly you have perfect pitch and the tone police drop by and give you your official 'tone opinion licence'.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Seymour wouldn't use them himself.

This may or may not be the case. The question here is: how would YOU know? Did you personally ask him? If yes, in what context did the answer apply?

his earliest designs (59's, Seths, Antiquities, JB's, Alnico 2 Tapped Tele Hot, etc.)

Are you aware that after Kevin Beller took over the engineering seat at the Co., Seymour didn't design any p'up? You may also take a look at the patents obtained by Kevin and specially the dates.

I know you like those weak A3 pickups.

I love the veiled contempt you show towards the A3 mags... or should I say towards the ones that like'em?

But I sure don't like them and I don't know any pros personally who use them. None of my friends and none of the professionals I know.

What about all the ones you don't know? Those literally millions of players don't count?

With a few exceptions, it's mostly just non professional internet experts who I see raving about alnico 3 & 4.

You mean, a non-professional, self-appointed internet expert like, say... yourself?

I love the absolutism conveyed in your words, Lew. Like you're desperately trying to motivate that your opinion is, somehow, more valid than others?

Reality check: in a blind test, you (or almost anybody else, for what I've experienced in all the blind tests I've participated throughout the years) won't be able to consistently hear the difference of an A3 p'up against the same p'up with an A2, specially in the neck position, or an A4 against an A5, specially in the bridge position. Or your own guitar among ten others, even if they're substantially different (LP vs 335).

Also, just by adjusting the setup, I could be able to make you think your beloved A2 guitar is now a to you contemptuous A3, and even generate a convincing chart?

Lew, you're 67. At this point in your life, I already know it's impossible for you to change anything. But at least I won't be guilty of not trying.

Enjoy yourself!

 

[daenius]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Come on guys let's not turn this thread into a flame war.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Come on guys let's not turn this thread into a flame war.

Flame war???

C'mon, there's not even a trace of cigarette smoke here...

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Ashtray breath reporting for duty ...

I'd just like to say I own, use and enjoy A3 pickups and A4 pickups. Of course that means I have no friends and could never possibly be a professional musician, and after 45+ years of playing, I still haven't mastered the craft of emptying a room, even when I add farting to the mix of horrible magnets.

sheesh.

 

[Demanic]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Ashtray breath reporting for duty ...

I'd just like to say I own, use and enjoy A3 pickups and A4 pickups. Of course that means I have no friends and could never possibly be a professional musician, and after 45+ years of playing, I still haven't mastered the craft of emptying a room, even when I add farting to the mix of horrible magnets.

sheesh.

Then you need to change your diet. Add more legumes and cruciferous vegetables. Oh and garlic.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I played professionally from the time I graduated from high school in 1967 until about 1985. Until I was about 35 years old. I've worked professionally as a band leader and as a sideman and as a singer/songwriter playing acoustic guitar.

My high school band, the Soul Kickers, opened for the Mothers of Invention when I was 17 or 18 and I played the club scene in Ann Arbor, Detroit, Denver all over Colorado, until I decided I needed to make a real living and I phased out making music for a living by about 1985.

At that point I decided I wanted to own my own home, get married, raise a family and pay my bills on time.

So I taught myself wood working and furniture design. I already had a talent for it and already had wood working skills from repairing guitars. Doing refrets, etc. Eventually I opened Boulder Furniture Arts and the store still exists although I sold it six or seven years ago when I got sick.

Anyways, I was a professional guitarist for something like twenty years.

I still love backing up singers and playing in church settings, and sitting in with blues bands in Colorado but I don't do it for a living any more because it's never been much of a living.

I was making $50 to $100 a night thirty years ago and that's still about the best you can do thirty years later. Crazy.

But don't kid yourself. I can still get onstage with just about anyone and make music on a professional level.

I have never stopped performing and improving as a musician.

And I have always been able to notice things that are slightly out of place, and hear subtle differences that others seem to miss.

That really seems to annoy certain people who lack that ability.

BTW, I first spoke with Seymour back in the 1970's when he offered a Pickup Repair service and got work from a tiny black and white ad in Guitar Player Magazine. I sent him some real 50's Gibson PAFs that needed repairs.

Remember this ad anyone?

I can't even remember all of the now vintage guitars I've owned over the years, but the list would include a '56 Gold Top Les Paul that I traded my Fender Jaguar for while I was still in high school, several sunburst Les Pauls from '58 and '59, at least one three pickup Les Paul Custom from the late 50's, ES-335's from the 50's and 60's, a few 50's Teles and Strats and many more.

I acquired my first Fender tweed Bassman about 1968. I've owned several since then. As well as plexi Marshalls, original tweed Deluxes, Twin Reverbs, Super Reverbs, Deluxe Reverbs, Pro Reverbs, and more.

I still own my '54 Tele, my '51 Fender Super, my '59 Harvard/Princeton and my blackface Deluxe Reverbs and Princeton Reverbs. Yes, that's plural. Two of each.

My opinions and recommendations may not be right for everyone, but I know what works for me and for the professionals who come to me for advice, and make no mistake: I have been playing professionally and collecting and working on guitars and amps since before many "Internet Experts" were born.

I'll be in Memphis in January 2018 for the International Blues Challenge finals, working as a guitar tech.

 

[JeffB]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

A3 rods and 43g wire are my fave when it comes to Tele pickups.

Love Fralins A4 buckers and so far I dig the a4 in the neck position of my Les Paul. It has a certain warm quality I dig. Especially for clean and edge of breakup tones. I put an A4 in my rewind bridge t top and it sounds fantastic in my PRS core sc245.

:shrug:

 

[Davii]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Not being anywhere near expert as others here on this subject, I can only say that [in my experience] magnets seem to be a finishing touch when it comes to EQ. I don't always find huge changes in output either. From doing my own, that area seems to have more to do with wire gauge, and how much of it.

I'd have thought to have those magnets in the other way; A4 in the bridge, A3 in the neck, but that's based on my own fiddling with other pickups, and not the 59s in question (which I've never had/tried).

In other news, I just got a CS A3 neck, and it's certainly got a shed load of low end. Whether that's a great idea for 59s or not...

 

[jeremy]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

i dont dislike any magnet in particular but tend to prefer a2 humbuckers, a5 strat pups, and a2 tele bridge pups. ive had old p90's and still have a pair but i couldnt tell ya what type of magnet they are other than rough cast

I'll be in Memphis in January 2018 for the International Blues Challenge finals, working as a guitar tech.

nice, i might be there too. ive been the past eight or nine years in a row

 

[LtKojak]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I just got a CS A3 neck, and it's certainly got a shed load of low end. Whether that's a great idea for 59s or not...

What did you get, exactly?

I'm curious... I'd like to know what specs you've ordered.

Pretty please?

 

[Davii]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

What did you get, exactly?

I'm curious... I'd like to know what specs you've ordered.

Pretty please?

I needed a humbucker to replace a Slash neck pup in a 2016 LP, as that was too hot n' muddy. I like things to be fairly sweet sounding, have a soft attack, and a rounded top end, but left it up to them as to anything more specific - I'd mentioned an interest in RCA3 (I'm using those elsewhere), but that magnet, and output was up to them to achieve tonal character etc.

What arrived has a lot of low end on the go, so with this thread being about [notourious bottomed] 59s + A3, I thought the EQ profile might be misleading. Even with the weaker magnet.

I took some readings before loading it, if that's what you're after?

 

[LtKojak]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I took some readings before loading it, if that's what you're after?

Yes, I appreciate much it you care to share that info.

An A3-modded '59n is not boomy at all, and the highs are sweet, but articulated at the same time. It became my fave neck p'up for Jazz and Blues.

HTH,