expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

[AlexR]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

There are still other variables that need to be controlled. A-priori knowledge of what is being auditioned as it is being auditioned is something that can be accounted for as it can and often does have an effect over the perceived outcome. When signals that reach the brain from the inner ear are in conflict with other stimuli and/or preconditioning, the brain can and will overrule/reinterpret it resulting in a perception of a reality that didn't actually occur.

Unfortunately there is a problem in presenting this little inconvenient truth to people who are unaware of it. No one likes it when their personalized version of reality is called into question, and it is viewed as an affront. Now if waiting a week or ten is necessary to keep you headed forward in the path of chasing tone when swapping magnets then so be it. If that delay isn't required for others making the exact same changes there is no harm in that either.

Now if the angry mob carrying torches and pitchforks wants to burn me at the stake for espousing such sacrilege and challenging one of their own, you now have the podium.

I've said this before. If you are open minded then you can assess the change objectively.

Your posts show you don't have this facility.....even more so than when I last said this. So you are immediately going to assume the rest of us cannot possibly have this ability.
Now I'm sure you will try and make some reasoning to try and convince everybody that you indeed are just arguing logic......but we can see through you.

You are close minded, fullstop.
Hence these sort of topics are pointless you being involved in, and pointless us discussing with you.....its something beyond you.

 

[gregory]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

You literally have no clue what it is to be open minded.

I'm willing to accept that magnets take settling time but not based on anecdotes derived from casual a-priori testing. That you think you can be objective because you deem your mind open is a joke, running counter to what is known about how the brain processes auditory stimuli resulting in the sense of sound. Full stop.

So any actual evidence that magnets requre settling time other than because, "I and others say so"???

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

You literally have no clue what it is to be open minded. I'm willing to accept that magnets take settling time but not based on anecdotes derived from casual a-priori testing. That you think you can be objective because you deem your mind open is a joke, running counter to what is known about how the brain processes the auditory stimuli resulting in the sense of sound. Full stop.

So any actual evidence that magnets requre settling time other than because, "I and others say so"???

I don't know if I believe it either. I just haven't heard it in the many pickups and many magnets I've played around with.

But I have heard dramatic improvements/changes instantly, such as when I put Roughcast A5 in a new set of 59's and heard tones I had not heard from my guitar in decades.

Maybe it's true. Maybe it's not. I just don't know. I haven't experienced the effect myself.

 

[AlexR]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Open minded is the ability to take the evidence and look at it objectively. To assess it based on how much of it there is as well as where it comes from.

Simply saying 'all hearing based evidence is clouded' as you do is not objective. That takes ones own personality and abilities and projects it on others.

Sceptics make good scientists. They don't immediately assume one way or the other. They look at the source of the info, how many independent sources can verify/repeat it and draw conclusions from there.....with degrees of certainty based on strength of said evidence. They are also able to change/modify that view if other evidence appears and don't feel emotionally wedded to that one conclusion.

Cynics make poor scientists. They have a fixed view on what goes on and cannot weigh evidence objectively. They also will not hear any other viewpoints, and are usually at pains to try and discredit sources and make snide comments about methods. I'm sure this all sounds familiar to you.

 

[gregory]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

The burden of proof falls on the believers that settling time makes a difference, Lew. Alex can posture all he wants on the matter. If he had the slightest interest in neuroscience he wouldn't make ignorant statements to suggest he can willfully circumvent his brain from processing auditory stimuli.

 

[AlexR]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

And this is a thread on tonal shifts with different mags. A subject quantifiable with meter readings.

 

[Davii]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Maybe the forum needs a Lab room, for discussing the sciencey stuff.

 

[gregory]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

This topic is not about settling time, but that didn't stop people from positing testable claims without citing any supporting evidence besides here-say.

 

[NeedForPower]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

And this is a thread on tonal shifts with different mags. A subject quantifiable with meter readings.

What meter would you use to quantify mag swap tonal shift and how would you set it up?

 

[Demanic]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Maybe that's because few of us are that concerned about proving it.
If you are concerned about proving or disproving or otherwise definitively explaining the phenomenon, no one is stopping you.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[NeedForPower]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

The burden of proof falls on the believers that settling time makes a difference, Lew. Alex can posture all he wants on the matter. If he had the slightest interest in neuroscience he wouldn't make ignorant statements to suggest he can willfully circumvent his brain from processing auditory stimuli.

The proof is simple. A4 magnet has x properties (the burden of examining those properties falls on the skeptic). A3 magnet has y properties. When magnets with different properties are used in a coil the result is a change in the magnetic field. Magnetic field x1 being different from magnetic field y1 result in different tonal characteristics in the signal generated.

 

[AlexR]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

What meter would you use to quantify mag swap tonal shift and how would you set it up?

A pickup is the combination of magnet and wire properties essentially. You have output, inductance and resonant frequency measurements. I think for the most part that a multimeter can read all you need, but an oscilloscope might also be more useful for some of them.

And despite what some might think, perception is also something that can be proof in the right circumstances. Of course you have to be open minded, and prepared to be objective.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

If I had any confidence that you understood that people can easily hear sounds that didn't actually occur, then I wouldn't have bothered.

On a positive note, I have faith (yes, I said it) that you're capable of having an open mind and are capable of coming to rational conclusions based on objective information that is presented to you.

I have a completely open mind to the idea that magnets require settling time, but I'm not going to believe it based merely on anecdotal experiences, no matter how diverse or frequent or whether they come from people who are highly respected as experts in the field of pickup design and/or fabrication.

Well I'll ask ; On what basis did you ascertain this ? And why should I view this as having any credibility at all ?

I put one in an Invader and after three years it still hasn't fully settled in.

 

[beaubrummels]

expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Nobody has any credibility, because you're all anonymous strangers. However, when 15 guys in 15 different locations with 15 different guitars and 15 different amps in 15 different environments all independently observe a similar auditory phenomena with a particular modification, that indeed has merit worth trying out myself, if it sounds like an objective I'm trying to reach.

 

[gregory]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Maybe that's because few of us are that concerned about proving it.
If you are concerned about proving or disproving or otherwise definitively explaining the phenomenon, no one is stopping you.

I trust that you believe you heard what you heard. I'm not suggesting you are a liar, nor am I suggesting you are delusional, nor am I suggesting that you are crazy. Hearing something that didn't actually occur is absolutely normal.

However, I'm very skeptical that you or Alex or anyone else making these claims would have experienced the same thing had the test been conducted in a scientifically controlled way. Now if there's a proper experiment demonstrating that someone could detect a change attributable to settling time, I'd like to see it.

I dropped a link to a presentation on the McGurk Effect. Did you look at it? If not, is it because you were already aware of the phenomenon? Assuming you have an open mind and enough interest in the subject, do you understand why people should be skeptical about how they interpret reality when there is conflict between the senses? Do you know anything about the three stages of auditory memory? Did you know that long term memory is stored as abstractions?

 

[Demanic]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

That's the beauty of inexpensive digital recording.
But I think my point is this, yes, based upon my experience I do think that different magnets take time to settle in. Do I care enough about it to exhaustively prove anything about it, no. And if you or anyone else doesn't want to believe that it happens, then I'm fine with that. At the end of the day it won't affect my quality of life one bit.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I trust that you believe you heard what you heard. I'm not suggesting you are a liar, nor am I suggesting you are delusional, nor am I suggesting that you are crazy. Hearing something that didn't actually occur is absolutely normal.

However, I'm very skeptical that you or Alex or anyone else making these claims would have experienced the same thing had the test been conducted in a scientifically controlled way. Now if there's a proper experiment demonstrating that someone could detect a change attributable to settling time, I'd like to see it.

Originally Posted by gregory I put one in an Invader and after three years it still hasn't fully settled in.

I dropped a link to a presentation on the McGurk Effect. Did you look at it? If not, is it because you were already aware of the phenomenon? Assuming you have an open mind and enough interest in the subject, do you understand why people should be skeptical about how they interpret reality when there is conflict between the senses? Do you know anything about the three stages of auditory memory? Did you know that long term memory is stored as abstractions?

Again: How did you ascertain this if there if you have no discernible way of doing so ?
Your McGurk effect is pretty much irrelevant here and as far as sounds that aren't there, any one who's done a substantial amount of sound mixing, are quite aware of such phenomena.

 

[gregory]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

Well I'll ask ; On what basis did you ascertain this ? And why should I view this as having any credibility at all ?

There is no credibility in that statement. It came after a smack down I received for not drinking the cool aid offered by the magnet settling time cabal. Pepe was spot on for challenging it, though I wish I had said months rather than years. I was poking fun at the fanciful things that I read by people that often leads to speculation about the cause which never includes the fallibility of the human auditory system. Perhaps that's because it isn't commonly understood by this community. That's OK. Hopefully those who are curious and open-minded will consider this.

 

[AlexR]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

I trust that you believe you heard what you heard. I'm not suggesting you are a liar, nor am I suggesting you are delusional, nor am I suggesting that you are crazy. Hearing something that didn't actually occur is absolutely normal.

However, I'm very skeptical that you or Alex or anyone else making these claims would have experienced the same thing had the test been conducted in a scientifically controlled way. Now if there's a proper experiment demonstrating that someone could detect a change attributable to settling time, I'd like to see it.

There is a 'preponderance of the evidence' that can be considered. Which takes into account the scenario Beau illustrated above. It stands below 'proven scientific test' in terms of accuracy and strength. But if you see the same results over and over from independent sources indeed you then you can extrapolate.

And I'll call your attention again to the skeptic vs cynic personality traits. The cynic sees an effect like the McGurk one and immediately assumes it covers ALL cases......like you seem to do. I say 'seem' here as you have immediately dismissed all possibility of auditory evidence being accurate without examining the sources and its independence. A true skeptic (scientist) would never do this.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: expected changes 59 with A4 and A3

For some, perhaps their attitude about the new sound has to settle. What does it matter? The real point is when you make a change, give it time and try it out through its paces before you conclude it didn't work or do what you expected.