Experienced bassissts - cab discussion

[DrNewcenstein]

Lay it on me: pros and cons of the various cab formats.

8s, 10s, 12s, 15s, 18s, with and without horns, 1x, 2x, 4x, 6x, 8x...

Gonna build a rig, need to know.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Experienced bassissts - cab discussion

General rule of thumb is that smaller drivers have a shorter response time than larger ones. Larger drivers make a better job of delivering the really low frequencies. HF horns help to fill in the top end detail. Some sort of volume balance control for the HF horn helps - especially if it includes an Off position.

The magic word is coupling. (No, NOT Aceman and Grumptruck!) The way that the cabinet interacts with the floor and/or any wall close behind it. (Ask the guys with the Phil Jones Bass micro combos.)

My Marshall DBS rig used to consist of the amp head, 2x10 and 1x15 cabinets. Then, at an open mic night, I played through the organiser's Alligator 2x10 bass combo. It sounded perfectly fine.

In more recent years, my amp has been a tc electronic Staccato '51 head and RS210 cab. Just as a test, I decided to run the tc head through the old Marshall 2x10 turned on its side. Sounded convincing to my ears.

 

[the aXeman]

Re: Experienced bassissts - cab discussion

My experience with 8's is limited... From what I've found, most guys that I've crossed that use them are Jazzers... Not enough bollocks for me... 10's are great. They catch the mids usually the best (at least where I push it in the sweep) and are really tight and focused. The problem is they really don't have the air push that you sometimes need... 12's I can't comment on because I've never tried them... Lemmy from Motorhead digs them though. 15's throw the most air and can handle highs pretty decently if you use the right ones... They really push air and give the 'thump' onstage. Some guys dig them because they're mellower in the high end than 10's... some dig them for the extra lows... All taste there. I run a 410 w/ a 215 for that reason. 410 I mic for the tone... the 15's have the bollocks/volume I'm after. If I ran just an 810 I wouldn't need the 15's but this way I have the best of both worlds and don't have to lug a big fridge of a cabinet around....

My first cab was a 118 and I'd avoid those at all costs. You can't really do much with them at all; just too muddy in the lows and can't push highs at all (at least from my experience)...

Horns/tweeters etc... those are what give you the ULTRA-highs and most of the time I turn mine off (or at 25% if that's an option...) They can pair up well w/ 15's for the ultra highs and lows... but for me they don't serve more purpose than that otherwise atm... They sound pretty wicked when you back off the treble and have a little distortion in the sound, which is something I"m experimenting with atm...

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Experienced bassissts - cab discussion

Thanks. :friday:

Years ago I had a Peavey bass combo - think it had a 12 or 10 in it, can't recall. Wasn't good in a band setup, but fine of you just wanted sound, much like my current Fender Rumble 25.

I've seen rigs of various sizes over the years - the fridges of doom and whatnot - but didn't really get to spend "quality time" with them.

I do know/understand the basics of how speaker size and movement and tone are inter-related (like most of Lucid's family :lol: ). Bigger = more low potential, smaller = more high-range.

I've heard wild tales of yesteryear from an Uncle who played in various bar bands in the 60s and 70s - and his brother's 18" bass cab that would clear the tables :lol:

Going through the offerings from "the usual suspects" like Carvin, GK, Ampeg, etc, I see a wide range of mix-n-match cab options - 2x10, 2x10+1x15, ad nauseum - but having no hands-on experience with anything other than practice amps, I'd like to gather as much intel as I can before spending "guitar money" (to ride in Aceman's boat for a moment).

I know that final choice will depend greatly on what I plan to achieve tonally, but that's another tale for another time, as I do a wide variety of stuff from classic Metal (Priest, Maiden, etc) to more Fusiony stuff to my own interpretations of whatever the hell pops into my head :lol:

I do have a head already - vintage Ampeg B-25B - so I'll be looking at cabs at first. Not entirely sure of the specs (it's in storage and haven't seen it for about 10 years :lol: ) but it's my understanding this is a powerful head.

Basses vary from P/J to double-J to bars, with and without onboard EQ.


If anyone else can offer some tonal pontifications on the various cab formats, as well as drivers (paper vs aluminum and whatnot), I'd welcome the info.

And what about crossovers? I know they keep the lows from killing your tweeters and the highs from burning your woofers, and they come in active and passive, but I'm not entirely clear on the specific definition of "active" and "passive" in this case (as opposed to "active" and "passive" guitar pickups), so any help there is appreciated.

:friday:

 

[Rodney Gene]

Re: Experienced bassissts - cab discussion

This is big question and a loaded question so be prepared for a great deal of myth/misconception and misinformation sputtered within the wisdom LOL ::laughing: In the end, it really depends on needs and intents. Here are some totally incomplete basics that may help you to develop more/new questions.

1. Driver size (speaker size) does not determine how LOW a frequency it will reproduce. So use your ears and don't look at the cab...except for its design. Efficiency is everything.
2. 18s, 15s 12s, 10s 8s etc..all respond with the same speed. I know we often hear that 10's are 'faster' than 15s etc. but...no. Myth.
12's are more popular than ever now because cab design has been managed by more and more companies as before there were only a handful.

That said...the more speakers you have the more POWER you can handle and therefore gain more headroom/volume etc. This is why 4x10s produce LOWER and LOUDER than a single 15.
Some people think 10s, 8s, etc.. reproduce tone more 'accurately' because of the particular dispersion angle of smaller speakers, but again cab design is so much more relevant here than anything. Properly tuned VERTICAL cab with 12s, 15s etc. will always reproducemore accurately. When you look at 'boutique' bass cabs such as Bergatino, EA, Aguilar, F-Bass, EBS, Bag End, Epiphani etc, what you pay for is design and construction. This is why they sound so good and the smaller cabs can handle a Low B easily.

One reason many people think 15"s are less 'defined' or sometime flabby is because of poor cab design or speaker material, at least back in the day. But take a great sounding 1-15 PA speaker and the myth is busted. It is FULL range, clear, piercing top end definition etc. Good 15" bass cabs are this way.

Larger speakers produce more low frequency 'air' (SPL) but only because the cone surface is larger. 4x10s roughly equal the same cone surface size as one 18".
Some cabs are ported/tuned for certain frequencies. Its good to know that going in. Some cabs have a 12 or 15 inch driver facing the floor to push low end out.
I just played with an upright bassist who uses a Mesa Scout 1x15 with a 12" down-firing sub and neo mags. Great clear tone.
Bass cab designs using Neodymium magnets have come a long way in terms of sound. They really sound great and are light.

Bottom line, today: Lots of options for you and cab designs are much more efficient which allow for smaller cabs. lighter cabs, big sound. Even some 900 watt heads are 7 or 8 lbs. Ha. Exciting times!
Always the best bet is to go listen. Cheers!

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Experienced bassissts - cab discussion

Hmmm, great deal of info there, thanks! :friday:

 

[Rodney Gene]

Re: Experienced bassissts - cab discussion

Hmmm, great deal of info there, thanks! :friday:

My pleasure bro!

Bassists have been misinformed for a long time and its not our fault. We have been fed a whole lot of hyperbole from marketing. Still do today. Some of it is complete and utter nonsense LOL! But we also buy into something based on appearance and what seems like common sense. That is a natural thing for us to do.

I was fortunate early on to be mentored by and play with some geeky gear head pros. Having the correct info allows us to get out of the 'popular lore' quagmire.

That bass head is a cool sounding Ampeg 55wts (Tube watts). Probably adequate for small gigs but not much else. If it is working well it is excellent for studio recording. Pair it with a 2x10 for efficiency and I bet it will be at its best. I bet it sounds great with guitar also. Love the classic Ampeg sound. You may not have much success driving the input with active electronics as it likely distort the input. J-bass / Ampeg. Classic Priest Metal! (Although I think Ian plays SWR) Enjoy the journey! Cheers!

 

[mc2]

Re: Experienced bassissts - cab discussion

Man...I hate bass cabs with horns/tweeters, especially the cabs that lack attenuators to turn them off.

 

[ginormous]

Re: Experienced bassissts - cab discussion

Man...I hate bass cabs with horns/tweeters, especially the cabs that lack attenuators to turn them off.

Horses for courses... slap players love the "snap" of a high-end driver articulating the treble.

The practical aspects of hauling around a twin 15" setup (weight, size, power consumption) often outweigh the benefits (turning the room into a giant personal vibrator when you hit the low E). That's why I've gone smaller, with a single 15. I'm saving up for a dual 10, or perhaps even dual 8s to put on top.

I've played through a 4x10 Hartke with aluminum cones (first-gen Guild). It was really cool to get so much low end out of something that fit in the back seat of a 4-cylinder sedan. I rolled back the top end on my axe, but when I needed to slap I opened it up a bit.

When I bought my fretless P, the store only had a Roland Chorus amp to play through. It wasn't super loud, but the tone was killer; later I found out Jaco used one to track parts on the Joni Mitchell "Mingus" album.

TLDR -- try different ones until you find one you like and can afford.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Experienced bassissts - cab discussion

When I was a kid, my Uncle had a Fender Showman for his pedal steel that was 2x15, and it was f'n large. No way I'd go that big. Maybe 1x15 and either 2x10 or 4x10.

Definitely going to use a 5-string, and sometimes tuned down a full step (would depend on the vocalist's range), so it would have be able to handle a low A. If I go with Speed Metal, then I'll hafta go up a gauge on the strings to maintain tension, so the speakers would also have to have quick reaction.

Seems that Dave Ellefson of Megadeth uses Hartke 8x10 cabs. Steve Harris is reportedly using 8 Marshall 4x12s. Somehow I don't think I need an 8x10 or 8 4x12s :lol:

I'm thinking a 1x15, a 2x12, and either 2x10 or 4x8 might do me fine if I can put together a working band, where I'm not the guitarist, anyway :lol:

If I build a modular enough rig, I can have just about any combination for small-medium venues.

Guess the next question would be about heads, since my Ampeg is only 25watts