Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headstock?

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How much force does it take to bend the high E string to F (one step)
and how much force does it take to bend the G string to A (two steps)?

The point here is to compare an Explorer and a Les Paul, where both
have about the same string length on the G string, but the high E
string is much longer on the Explorer due to the in-line tuners.

The base data of lengths is:
Code:
Lengths in inches:
            ---                 nut to tuner
        nut to bridge   Explorer        Les Paul
high E: 24.75           6.0             2.5
G:      24.8125         4.5             5.0
-------------------------------------------------       LP->Explorer
total high E:           30.75           27.25           +12.8%
total G:                29.3125         29.8125          -1.7%

Bending force required in Newton:
Code:
Force required for:     Explorer        LP      LP->explorer ratio
------------------------------------------------------------------
high E to F:            7.1             7.85    -9.5%
G to A:                 8.3             8.40    +1.2%


So that means that roughly the 10% longer string means 10% less force required for bending. Theory actually arrives in practice. The other results with +/- 1.5% are in the testing noise.

Testing notes:
  • the Explorer has a slightly higher action, high E string at 12st is 2.0mm on the Les Paul and 2.2mm on the Explorer
  • strings are Dean Markley Nickle Steel Custom Lite .009, .011, .016, .026, .036, .046 on both guitars
  • both guitars freshly tuned and intonated, but not too paranoid
  • graphite in corian or plastic nut

Testing method:
  • get a pencil, old scool wood one with an eraser at one end and a flat end on the other side (not sharpend)
  • get a kitchen scale like used for baking
  • tune the guitar and intonate it on the 12 string, precisely
  • leave guitar in tuner
  • hold the kitchen scale with your left hand, a pick in the right
  • brace the pencial against the target string on the 12th fret with the non-rubber end. And against scale with the rubber end, from below the neck
  • use the smallest angle required to make the string "work", to have it make a tone on the 12th fret
  • then push up the scale until the frequency is the target frequency
  • read the scale. 102 grams = 1 Newton

It's important that you use the same angle of pencil towards fretboard
every time. If you change the angle the force displayed on the scale
changes without the force actually required for the string changing
(due to lever force).

Conclusion:
- having a longer string by extensing the string between nut and tuner
turns into a real bending advantage. It should be, and in practice
actually is (who-hoo), linear to the effective length of the string
from anchor point (stop piece etc.) to the tuner.

Remarks:
- longer scale doesn't mean lighter bending, it means heavier
bending. For lighter bending, you want to reduce the length from
bridge to nut and at the same time increase the length from anchor
point (stop piece or whatever you use) to tuner.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

this is a very interesting expidition into scientific measurements. very original!


VAULT
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

Maybe people will stop telling me that Gibson scale necks make the guitars easier to play now . . .
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

this actually had more to do with headstock type rather than shorter scale.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

Maybe people will stop telling me that Gibson scale necks make the guitars easier to play now . . .

Uh? They are.

The shorter scale makes it easier to bend.

The longer total string (scale + the way to the tuner) makes it easier to bend.

So a Gibson scale guitar with an inline head is easiest.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

btw...there are a few things that you didn't take into acount:

the recorvery force

and the amt of time for recovery
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

I'm kinda glad you did this research, because i've never thought that hard about it. i've always thought 3x3 / 6-in-line was more of a style issue than anything else, and seeing the relatively minute difference between the two doesn't really change my opinion on that matter.

i mean if anybody ever tells me i should've gotten an Explorer and not an SG because string bends on the high E are roughly 10% easier on the Explorer I'm gonna be kinda irritated, hahaha...

still, this is something shredders and dudes who really let the numbers get in their heads (y'know all those "I CAN AND WILL NOT PLAY GIBSON GUITARS BECAUSE I CAN ONLY USE A 25" SCALE NECK" guys) will really really appreciate.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

i believe you also left out the physical components of it...string tension changing constantly as well as pieces of the nut changing....
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

i believe you also left out the physical components of it...string tension changing constantly as well as pieces of the nut changing....

String tension changes constantly, sure, but what exactly do you mean here? I'm just bending on the 12st fret here for the experiment.

My nuts are pretty much neutral in my experiment, they are well-lubed with graphite.

What recovery force do you refer to?

BTW, a locking tremolo nut will instantly make the strings harder to bend since now you don't have any additional length beyond the nut.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

i meant the physical corrosion.

to tell the truth...i'm not quite sure why i said that....i think i was thinking the variability of each piece of wood...but you covered that
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

My strings don't corrode. Too cold up here :)

Seriously, all guitars have brand new strings here and I don't think bending forces are changed unless there's enough rust to remove effective diameter.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

i was talking about the nut


the size of the string substantially effects the amt of psi. it's up to 4 digits
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

I'm afraid I still can't follow. Both guitars have the same strings, Dean Markley "Custom Lite" 009-046. Both nuts are lubricated the same way.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

nvm


it was an incorrect idea... i think
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

Wow... cool info! However, I have to say that surely the neck wood must have some thing to do with it? The reason I say this is coz I have L.P's with Mahogany necks and string bends are easy, 2 of my mates have 70's maple neck L.P's and it's like WTF... harder to bend than my ASAT! Just wanted to throw it in the pot to see what you think? Excellent work in any case.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

Wow... cool info! However, I have to say that surely the neck wood must have some thing to do with it? The reason I say this is coz I have L.P's with Mahogany necks and string bends are easy, 2 of my mates have 70's maple neck L.P's and it's like WTF... harder to bend than my ASAT! Just wanted to throw it in the pot to see what you think? Excellent work in any case.

I don't think that the neck substantially bends into your bend.

This is easy to test:
- take the guitar
- connect to a tuner
- tune carefully
- bend the high E or B string as high as you can, but don't play it
- play the open low E string
- observe what the tuner says about the low E string

If the neck bends into your bend, then the open low E string would lose tune and be too low frequency until you release the bend on the other string.

Instead I think you probably have a stuck nut, higher action, thicker strings, lower frets or the different neck shape doesn't allow you to brace the thumb properly so that it feels more difficult.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

I don't think that the neck substantially bends into your bend.

This is easy to test:
- take the guitar
- connect to a tuner
- tune carefully
- bend the high E or B string as high as you can, but don't play it
- play the open low E string
- observe what the tuner says about the low E string

If the neck bends into your bend, then the open low E string would lose tune and be too low frequency until you release the bend on the other string.

Instead I think you probably have a stuck nut, higher action, thicker strings, lower frets or the different neck shape doesn't allow you to brace the thumb properly so that it feels more difficult.

Good idea bud, I'll get my mates maple neck L.P and compare to mine as soon as I can.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

Uh? They are.

The shorter scale makes it easier to bend.

The longer total string (scale + the way to the tuner) makes it easier to bend.

So a Gibson scale guitar with an inline head is easiest.

Sorry, my mistake . . . I misread something there.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

Your finger bending a string is not going to give any neck with a truss rod a moments pause.

Neck wood species has nothing to do with ease bending unless we're making necks out of balsa.
 
Re: Experiment: is bending actually easier on an in-line headstock than a 3/3 headsto

The reason I say this is coz I have L.P's with Mahogany necks and string bends are easy, 2 of my mates have 70's maple neck L.P's and it's like WTF... harder to bend than my ASAT! Just wanted to throw it in the pot to see what you think?

Assuming the same string guages on all guitars, are their break angles over the bridges steeper than your own. Or do you possibly top wrap?

On the in-line / 3&3 thing, I don't think it will make much difference, because once you start to bend, you will be trapping the string in the nut anyway - and bridge to tail length will have more of an effect.
 
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