Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

[C-Martin]

I been having and ongoing issue with balancing the sound with the other guitarist i play in my band (whos the composer, so actualy im the "other" guitarist lol).. heres what has hapened..

Ive always had my JTM-45 and 1922 cab wiht my strat (s-s-s), he started off with a old Roland Bolt-60 with a Yamaha gutiar.. problem, the amp sounded cool at first we tought but my setup would overpower him easely and he would often sound very "small" or sometimes we would not hear him at all.. when play just me and him i would lower my volume but when the drummer kicked in, he plays hard and loud and it was a problem..

His amp seemed to be loud enough so i upgraded his guitar with duncan humbuckers, cuz the stock ones souned shrill it literaly hurt when he used the bridge pickup, and figured it might help if he had a better sound and we might hear him better.. his guitar needed it anyways.. I switched mine to H-S-S too at the same time. it seemed to be better but the problem was stil there.. my sound was more present than his more often than not.

His amp seemed to have problems from the start but eventualy its tubes blew up and this is where it all changed.. it forced him to either repair it but since he tought it wouldnt fix the issue he decided to get a new amp... the Fender Blues DeVille 410. At first it seemed great and the sound was much better and he was much more present but the more he played with it the more his sound seemed to get "bigger" so i had to start realy cranking my amp, wich is not a bad thing.. til eventualy he dialed in and his sound seemed to overcome mine..

For weeks we messed arround and his sound seemed much "louder" or more present than mine.. i even added annother cap, switched to 16ohm and pluged 2 2x12 cabs to my marshall wich seemed to add a little more air or presence to my sound but make it slightly weaker too..

Recently out of pure luck and GAS i bought a Les Paul i found that was pretty sweet.. since i got one it motivated him to get one aswell. So now the same setups, with 2 les pauls.. and the sound seemed very balanced for some reason... both of us could be heared clearly, tho he did tone down the volume slightly to ajust it but nonetheless.. the sound seemed balanced.

What is the problem now? i never intended on staying with a Les paul all the time at gigs or practices... my main axe is my strat, wich i curently recustomize with more vintage output pickups in S-S-S.. the problem is now with his new setup and mine pluged with my strat.. im to "weak" again.

LOL im sorry if this is a long thread but that pretty much sums it up.. what can i do to help in my situation? i pretty much tried all i know.. even a booster petal, and i dont wanna have to use the les paul all the time

 

[drew_half_empty]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

maybe have him switch to 5881's & bias hotter, that way he gets that tone a little sooner

for you i'd say either get a SD pup booster or a big muff, depending on what style of music you play. Both have the ability to fill out the strat quite a bit

or maybe you just need to change your EQ settings for each guitar

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

The trick is that you both occupy a different frequency, so the volume is less of an issue. One reason I mostly play single coils into EL-34 amps is because I want singles to sound thick in mids, without having midrangey pickups.

I'd suggest getting him in a higher frequency, and you in a lower one. See if he can play a strat or tele, while you play an HSS or LP. I'd suggest bringing all your guitars to the studio, and playing the same song with different combos. Once you find the best sound, stick with that arrangement.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

Tch the age-old problem...I dunno man, it seems like if you found 'the spot' with each of you rockin an LP then maybe you should just suck it up and play it.

On the other hand tho, I'm gonna give a +1 to Gearjoneser...the best live tones i've ever heard are from bands where the guitarists use complimentary instruments. The Pixie's singer and rhythm guitarist plays Tele's into his Marshalls, and the lead guitarist plays Les Pauls through the same model Marshalls...the difference in tone is slight but the lead guitarist obviously cuts through a lot more.

Same goes for metal bands where one guitarist has a crunchy Marshall and the other has a growly, bassy Mesa.

You're gonna have to have a one-on-one 'practice' with him where you get your amps EQ'd perfect...might have to decide on which one of you is 'lead' and which is 'rhythm' and which one's equipment can get you there the easiest.

-X

 

[C-Martin]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

he wotn play a strat, he hates em, and i doubt he'll be playing his old yamaha since he ditched out the dough for his new gibson les paul.. wich we are in the process of upgrading with new pots, pickups, etc.. And me i dont want to be stuck with the les paul.. it doesnt have the bar wich i need for some lead or solo stuff and doesnt have the same twangy kinda clean for soem others stuff.. plus its just basicly my main axe and i always tought a les paul teamed up with a strat would sound great, lots have done it..


and yea i tought about the frequency thing.. but we been basicly messing with the setings for months and stil cant dial in something... one thing i did notice is that he was more in the treble frequency with a more scooped sound and now hes going for more mids.. i on the other hand always went for higher mids and bit less treble since the strat is already pretty bright


One more thing i can say is for some reason my amp seems very "climaticly sensitive?" or temperature and weather seems to affects its sound.. sometimes it sounds great other tiems i seem to have to tweak it alot to get it sounding decent.. he also gets that but not much its mostly a problem with my amp.. maybe my tubes are messed up or soemthing? dont know that much about amp circuitry and this seems kinda odd to me

 

[C-Martin]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

oh yea.. i have and SD-1 and a metal zone in my setup so i dont know if the big muff would change anything.. tho i have tried it and i guess it could somewhat thicken my sound some..

also tried a eq pedal or the drumer had a cry baby with a booster on it, with or without it it didnt change much.. sound was kinda louder but also kinda got muddy or less defined for some reason, its most probably a frequency thing like you said, he also suggested it might be a problem.. i play trough pedals and the other guy plays trough a Boss GT-6 so tweaking is easier for him than me but he wont sacrifice his tone im sure.. hes enjoying his new tone, he's the "lead" guy in a way.. hes the composer like i said, im the rythm guy yet i do the solos cuz he cant do em.. perhaps i need to figure out a good rythm setup and try to get some kinda a/b switch to switch to annother more cuting setup when i need for the solos

 

[stevie_bees]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

Try swapping your amps over, and you play into his and vice-versa.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

two 2x12 cabs at 16 ohms? i think that is part of your problem.

are the cabs both the 1922 model? if so they are 8 ohms in mono (which is how you should run them in this situation) so two of them in parallel equate to a 4 ohm load. set the amp to 4 ohms and you should get a better louder tone.

do you jump the channels?
5881's are good sounding tubes but not that loud compared to some others. if it was my amp i would have a set of kt66's in there

 

[Stratman]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

The trick is that you both occupy a different frequency, so the volume is less of an issue. One reason I mostly play single coils into EL-34 amps is because I want singles to sound thick in mids, without having midrangey pickups.

I'd suggest getting him in a higher frequency, and you in a lower one. See if he can play a strat or tele, while you play an HSS or LP. I'd suggest bringing all your guitars to the studio, and playing the same song with different combos. Once you find the best sound, stick with that arrangement.

AGAIN - Gearjoneser provides really sound advice. :smokin:



Way to go!

 

[drew_half_empty]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

oh yea.. i have and SD-1 and a metal zone in my setup so i dont know if the big muff would change anything.. tho i have tried it and i guess it could somewhat thicken my sound some..

also tried a eq pedal or the drumer had a cry baby with a booster on it, with or without it it didnt change much.. sound was kinda louder but also kinda got muddy or less defined for some reason, its most probably a frequency thing like you said, he also suggested it might be a problem.. i play trough pedals and the other guy plays trough a Boss GT-6 so tweaking is easier for him than me but he wont sacrifice his tone im sure.. hes enjoying his new tone, he's the "lead" guy in a way.. hes the composer like i said, im the rythm guy yet i do the solos cuz he cant do em.. perhaps i need to figure out a good rythm setup and try to get some kinda a/b switch to switch to annother more cuting setup when i need for the solos

sd-1's don't have that good of a volume boost AT ALL, that's one of the main reasons i don't own one. It's sad when boss's ds-1 distortion has more of a volume boost than their SUPER OVERDRIVE

the big muff has more available volume boost but the main reason i suggested it is that it thickens the hell out of anything it touches. If you have that pedal set right it's pretty much impossible to get a thin or shrill tone out of it, even strat bridges sound pretty gutsy with em

if you're the rythm guy but do lead at times i think adding a ts or big muff, combined with him switching to 5881's & biasing hotter is really the way to go. Whether you get the Ts or big muff i'd leave it on all the time, and roll back your volume knob for rythm tones.

 

[C-Martin]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

all seems good solution but you all gotta understand one thing, his gear is his gear and no switching is gonna hapen even if i am willing to try it.. he wont be doing no midifications on his amp for reasons of convenience.. i cant do the mods and he sint gonna sacrifice not having a amp for days or weeks to get it to a amp tech and he wont change it also cuz he likes his sound.

i have tought of switching my tubes tho.. i made a thread a while back about trying EL's or 6L6's.. tho i was leaning more twards the EL34's the KT66 came up and seemed the better choice.. only problem is, i dont know how or where to have my amp rebiased and all.. yea ill have to recheck on the 16 ohm thing.. im pretty sure i got it set like the book said but ill look, it might be what will make a diference and yes i jump the channels, i did a little tweaking to my amp today and it did some rather impressive results.. presence 7.5, bass 7, middle 10, treble 5.5, loudness 1 at 6, loudness 2 at 4.. i notice my friends amp is eq'ed very similar to mine only diference is his mids are nearly maxed at 10.5 and the rest is very low like 3-4 (his amp goes to 12 btw)


if your suggesting the big muff for thickening my sound i dought i need a "thickener" added to my sound... my sound is far from thin, never realy has been and its quite thick enough, never been thin or shirll, hard to believe perhaps for a strat? tho its even better with H-S-S setup, when playing metal palm mute kinda riffs it has a nice chunk to it.. i love the guitar.. and amp and all, they sound great but somehow just dont seem to balance out very well yet with his.. and we been trying to balance it for months.. bigest problem is in the solos realy, where i realy need to cut more and doubt that thicken my sound mroe will help

 

[Gr8Scott]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

How bout using a Tubescreamer/bad monkey pedal for the solos. Should cut a little more if you turn the tone knob up on it as it has a large upper mid spike.

You can also use a Boss or other EQ pedal and EQ in a bit of boost plus more treble/mids. It's a trick used by many that gets a sweet lead tone and adds more cut.

Looking at the thread I've realized that you lost pickup output when you went with the vintage pickups. This would make you sound weaker for sure. Plain jane volume boost would do the trick too I think. DOD Bifet boost would really be great, but they are going up in price every day and they have the DOD switch which isn't the world's most reliable switch. Re-box it with a temporary carling switch and you've got the solution to your problem right there.

 

[OlinMusic]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

I just have to ask is this the take of you guys in the band or a soundman and people standing 20 - 40 feet away?

You don't hear things that well WHILE YOU ARE PLAYING.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Fender Blues DeVille vs Marshall JTM-45?

Vintage 30's, or GB's, instead of G12T75's ,will probably help a lot. The 75's are empty in the mids, and it ofton takes a bit more of upper mids, to be present with another guitarist in the mix.

Isn't his amp 50 watts? A re-issue JTM45 with 5881's is typically only about 27 watts at clipping. V30's are more effcient and will help quite a bit in the precieved power aspect.

Going to EL34's (properly biased) will help you cut through better (snarl), plus get more power. JTM45's and Bluesbreakers can sometimes sound a little low in a mix, because of the way they are typically voiced, compared to a typical Fender voicing.

When you say your amp seems to be climately effected more, it seems like it could be a poor or inconsistant "house power" issue. The JTM is tube rectified, and this will show house power issues more. You may want to try a improved GZ34 (5AR4) rectifier tube.

Re-issue JTM45/Bluesbreakers can benifit from having the tone caps, and, IIRC, the mix resistors set to true vintage specs by a good tech.

On edit: Another thing to try is having the negative feedback wire changed from the 16 ohm lug to the 8 ohm lug.