Fender Hunt: Tone Master? 68 Custom?

[Markk]

I'm moving away (ways away) from my humbucking LP through a Marshall to a Fender + Fender sound. Something I've been yearning to do for years and after a long hiatus from general playing, the time has come...

So I have the guitar, a brand spankin' new American Pro II Strat (NGD post coming soon I hope). I'm on the hunt for an amp.

I started with research on Blues Junior and Pro Junior, then was drawn in by Fender's 68 Custom Vibro Champ. Excellent reviews. Still tube. Seems quite playable at home.

However, scouring the internet I stumbled upon Fender's Tone Masters (I missed this during my AWOL period). And now I'm on the fence, debating whether I should go the Vibro Champ route and still do the tube thing, or whether something like a Tone Master Twin Reverb or Tone Master Deluxe Reverb is 'better'.

The 68 Custom Twin Reverb and Deluxe Reverb are outside $$ allowance (however, there are outlet versions which are plausible, BUT the Deluxe's tremolo doesn't work, and I don't know what's wrong with the Twin. Gonna find out).

Financially the VC, and TMTR and TMDR all in an acceptable range. I can occasionally crank it in the house, and hope one day to get back into jam sessions. I'm diggin' the idea of the available attentuation on the Tone Masters. I am wondering about the longevity of the Tone Masters. As described by someone online, it's a laptop with speakers and knobs. My laptops have only gone 'obsolete' because the processing power started to lack when burdened by newer OS and program. But these are "single purpose laptop" amps, so I can't imagine they will suffer from a lack of processing power...

Your thoughts?

 

[jeremy]

i know a few people with the tonemaster amps. they really like them and are quite happy with em but they are all less than a year old. i assume if the amps are cared for properly, they should last a while? im a luddite and still use old ass heavy tube amps

 

[Ewizard]

I don't own a Tonemaster, but have had several come across my stage. My impression is that they are certainly decent sounding. They actually sound rather good with their DI output too. I can't say much for the actual tonality of the amp in a home situation, but they worked fine on the stage. The artist using it didn't seem to have a problem with it either.

My biggest fear with the things is that they are a digital amp. They basically use ICE components, which is a company that provides OEM parts to the general public. Aside from some of the proprietary stuff that makes the modeling section work, it is entirely an expendable unit. I.E. when one part dies, you essentially replace the whole amp. My bet is that by the time the units fail they will be several generations ahead in production and support for the older units will be low on their priority list. Turning them into a thing where it costs more to repair it than the product is worth.

That is my impression, whether that is the reality, or the truth of it, is still to be seen. With a tube amp, you generally have better odds of being able to repair it. I think the Tonemaster series sounds fine in a mix and on the stage, the DI function also works really well ( I found it to be very convincing and required little effort on my part to make a usable sound for the FOH mix ), and it certainly gets the job done. My fear is its relevance and longevity. Is it going to work in 5-10 years and will it still be repairable when it breaks after that point?

 

[Mincer]

I've been using a TM Deluxe live for a few years. They sound great and are super light. The direct XLR out is amazing, and makes setup a breeze, especially at festivals. I am not too worried about how fragile it is compared to a tube amp. Tube amps (especially in the Florida heat) probably have the same failure rate when used a lot.

 

[jeremy]

yes, but i can fix my old tube amps myself. i cant fix a digi amp and, as was mentioned, it can be very costly to get them fixed. again, if well cared for, i assume they will last a while without issue

 

[Mincer]

See, I don't know how to work on tube amps, and the amp guy I trust around here just moved up north. I don't bring my Mesa out to gigs often because of that (and because it is like 60lbs).

 

[NegativeEase]

68 Custom Deluxe is an absolutely killer amp.

 

[JamesPaul]

I am not a Fender amp user, so no tone comments from me.

However, I do work on my tube amps and my solid state amps. My modelers? If anything other than a power supply component failed, it is all Surface Mount Devices and Application Specific chips. They are designed for board swaps as a repair. The boards are usually not inexpensive. That is where Ewizard is going.

There is another side of that coin. My first modeler has been going since November 2008. I think I paid $500 for it. I will not do the math, but I think I got my money out of it. If it had died just after the warranty expired, it would be a different story.

 

[Markk]

68 Custom Deluxe is an absolutely killer amp.

...but it's so expensive (here) lol. The outlet one has a broken tremolo. Fender told the LGS to let it go at a discount, but I'm pretty sure the discount won't cover the costs of repair...

The Vibro Champ is interesting me because of it's tube nature and a bit more future-proof, save for the digital reverb...but I guess you could always put a pedal in front...

 

[Markk]

I am not a Fender amp user, so no tone comments from me.

However, I do work on my tube amps and my solid state amps. My modelers? If anything other than a power supply component failed, it is all Surface Mount Devices and Application Specific chips. They are designed for board swaps as a repair. The boards are usually not inexpensive. That is where Ewizard is going.

There is another side of that coin. My first modeler has been going since November 2008. I think I paid $500 for it. I will not do the math, but I think I got my money out of it. If it had died just after the warranty expired, it would be a different story.

Almost all my electrical music stuff, keyboards and a few SS amps from the past, have lasted many years to be honest. But yamaha et al have good track records of electronics, or at least in my opinion. Haven't really looked up the state of Fender's stuff, like the Cyber Twin.

 

[GuitarStv]

I don't own a Tonemaster, but have had several come across my stage. My impression is that they are certainly decent sounding. They actually sound rather good with their DI output too. I can't say much for the actual tonality of the amp in a home situation, but they worked fine on the stage. The artist using it didn't seem to have a problem with it either.

My biggest fear with the things is that they are a digital amp. They basically use ICE components, which is a company that provides OEM parts to the general public. Aside from some of the proprietary stuff that makes the modeling section work, it is entirely an expendable unit. I.E. when one part dies, you essentially replace the whole amp. My bet is that by the time the units fail they will be several generations ahead in production and support for the older units will be low on their priority list. Turning them into a thing where it costs more to repair it than the product is worth.

That is my impression, whether that is the reality, or the truth of it, is still to be seen. With a tube amp, you generally have better odds of being able to repair it. I think the Tonemaster series sounds fine in a mix and on the stage, the DI function also works really well ( I found it to be very convincing and required little effort on my part to make a usable sound for the FOH mix ), and it certainly gets the job done. My fear is its relevance and longevity. Is it going to work in 5-10 years and will it still be repairable when it breaks after that point?

This is my view as well.

The tonemaster amps work well and sound good. They are likely to be difficult to repair in ten years though, and probably impossible to repair in fifteen or twenty. Basically a disposable product.

 

[Wattage]

The TM Twin is amazing and I was super impressed with the TM Deluxe as well when I played thru it.

You only have good choices to make from the amps you're looking at

 

[Mincer]

This is my view as well.

The tonemaster amps work well and sound good. They are likely to be difficult to repair in ten years though, and probably impossible to repair in fifteen or twenty. Basically a disposable product.

I don't know how many repair people who will know what to do with a PC board-based tube amp in 15-20 years. Amps, other than high end hand-wired ones, are as disposable as iPods these days. Get your use out of them, then buy something else.

 

[GuitarStv]

I don't know how many repair people who will know what to do with a PC board-based tube amp in 15-20 years. Amps, other than high end hand-wired ones, are as disposable as iPods these days. Get your use out of them, then buy something else.

You need to get to know more repair people!

If you're comfortable swapping pickups in a guitar, you should be OK de-soldering and replacing components on a well built PC board amp. Even cheap PCB tube amps like the Hot Rod Deluxe shown below are quite easily repairable with clearly marked and well separated components:

 

[GuitarStv]

PC boards should be just as repairable as point to point as long as they don't use custom chips and SMTs and the traces aren't total crap.

 

[jeremy]

i agree, but there is a TON of absolute crap out there and smt is the way these days

 

[Ewizard]

The ToneMaster is SMT. And while many will look at a PCB board and think it is just fine, the truth is that many are made to a very low standard. I recently posted a thread talking about the lack of quality being applied to PCB's these days. The technology to make extreme-quality PCBs exists, but MOST ALL companies tend to go with the cheapest option available. If not the cheapest, the next most common build style for PCBs is to go with the most aesthetic-looking option. So now you have a cheap and aesthetic-looking PCB, not the best-built one you can get.

Most PCB based amps can tolerate a few repairs. As soon as you start modding them and or spending a considerable amount of time ripping the guts in and out, they quickly go from fine to not so happy, really quick. How many times an amp can be repaired is a very big QUESTION MARK. It may be 1 time, it may be 5 times, but there is a limit to the number of times you can rip it apart and fix it before taking it apart starts to cause the problems you end up fixing.

 

[PFDarkside]

IMO, if you really want the Fender/Fender sound, get a Fender Tube amp, like a 65DRI, Princeton Reverb, etc. The Tonemaster, while good, is still a modeling amp and at that point you may as well look at ALL modeling amps. If you look at all of them and the Tonemaster is still the choice, cool.

 

[Markk]

IMO, if you really want the Fender/Fender sound, get a Fender Tube amp, like a 65DRI, Princeton Reverb, etc. The Tonemaster, while good, is still a modeling amp and at that point you may as well look at ALL modeling amps. If you look at all of them and the Tonemaster is still the choice, cool.

I'm starting to sway this way. All this talk of PCB's and repair rates I'm really iffy on a modeling amp...but man are they getting super reviews nearly everywhere!

 

[NegativeEase]

Many cheaper amps made with SMTs will likely be trash when they break in the future -due to cost, logistics of repair versus their used value and your present GAS for something new. They will be disposable in that sense.

But if they sound great and are affordable maybe you make that choice over something more expensive..

Personally I sit in the camp of if you buy a 65DR or 68CDR (even though they are twice or three times the money)-you will own what is considered the "desert island" amp for recording and club gigging -and would want to care for it and own it forever.