Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

[Chistopher]

So I finally found out a way to figure out if wood makes a difference. This is different from all the other methods that people have done before, because this method is easy to do and the results are easy to replicate. Here it is:

Step 1: Grab your favorite electric guitar and your favorite slab of wood (I used a body blank).

Step 2: Play an open string or strings, and while the notes are still ringing out, lean the guitar against the wood. Make sure the guitar is unplugged at this point. When you lean the guitar against the wood it should sound darker. This is the higher frequencies being bled off as they are allowed to reverberate through the added wood. This clearly shows that wood makes a difference on the accoustic tone of the guitar.

Step 3: Do the exact same thing, but with the guitar plugged in. There will be no difference in tones.

This shows that even though wood creates a day and night difference in the accoustic tone of your instrument, it has no effect on the electrified tone. This experiment has been performed on a top-loaded Telecaster, a string-through Telecaster, a Les Paul, an ES-175, a Jem Jr., and a Gretsch Penguin. I also used 5 different amplifiers and there was no difference in any of then with or without the extra wood. Try it yourself too.

Note: Make sure not to rest the headstock on the slab of wood as that causes the neck to bow temporarily, putting the guitar out of tune. This can be misinterpreted as a loss of high end. Also, if you use piezo pickups, those doesn't apply to this experient.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Finally found out how to continue the tonewood debate.

Re: Finally found out how to continue the tonewood debate.

You need to fix your title..

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

If you can do this experiment and still believe tonewood makes a difference, that is your problem. But just remember, denial is the first step on the road to acceptance.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

I think all we have found out is another person who is silly enough to think 1 piece of data = a thesis.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

I think all we have found out is another person who is silly enough to think 1 piece of data = a thesis.

Please try it out before you tell me I'm wrong.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Yes, well done.....a LOT of extra testing is needed before we go from 'look, thats a curious effect' to 'this is what happens and we can predicts results' like the level of detail a scientist needs.

And yes, I have tried it. Using a slightly different method I found differences in sustain with the different mass.
How is that going with your theory now.

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

The real way to do this would be to create a frequency response diagram for each wood under the same conditions; I think sophisticated people have plugged guitars into interfaces to create such diagrams and shown that there is, in fact, a difference (whether general ones between different species, or between particular pieces of wood with no regard to species.)

But that example involves science, which OP doesn't seem to believe in using. Let me provide you with another real world example: Notice how some guitars are louder or quieter unplugged? Now, notice how when you happen to pick any plugged-in guitar louder or quieter, there are changes to the guitar's tone and volume? Imagine now that you have a piece of wood with a JB and a very whisper-quiet unplugged response, and another JB wood slab that resonates loud; the more resonant piece of wood allows you to "pick louder." So it should be evident now, which will drive an amp harder, and which is more compressed? It's not just the pickups...

 

[Artie]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

The question I would ask is: there's a huge difference in tone just based on where you strum/pick the strings. How would you exactly duplicate the position/force/angle of a "strum"?

 

[AlexR]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Yes, these sort of tests do tend end up as 'science vacuums' when you actually start looking closer. You can probably pick a couple of dozen flaws in the method, data level and then conclusion by the time you have examined it properly.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

The real way to do this would be to create a frequency response diagram for each wood under the same conditions; I think sophisticated people have plugged guitars into interfaces to create such diagrams and shown that there is, in fact, a difference (whether general ones between different species, or between particular pieces of wood with no regard to species.)

But that example involves science, which OP doesn't seem to believe in using. Let me provide you with another real world example: Notice how some guitars are louder or quieter unplugged? Notice how when you happen to pick any plugged-in guitar louder or quieter, there are changes to the guitar's tone and volume? Imagine now that you have a piece of wood with a very whisper-quiet unplugged response, and one that resonates like an acoustic; which will drive an amp harder? It's not just the pickups...

You seem fairly intelligent, so tell me, if you can only tell the difference using a frequency response diagram and not your ears, is it really worth worrying your little head about? Definitely not when playing live and almost certainly not in a studio.

Since you seem hellbent on agreeing with me, yes tonewood makes a difference on an accoustic instrument or an unplugged electric. But a guitar that resonates like an accoustic will still be whisper-quiet if the strings have almost no magnetic strength. Which one will drive an amp harder?

Also, Notice how some guitars are louder or quieter unplugged? Notice how those guitars tend to have thicker strings? And even if they don't have thicker strings, there is the whole uncoated versus coated thing going on. I have two accoustics of the same model. One with 13 gauge uncoated steel from D'Addario, and one with 12 gauge coated steel from D'Addario. Guess which one is louder.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

The question I would ask is: there's a huge difference in tone just based on where you strum/pick the strings. How would you exactly duplicate the position/force/angle of a "strum"?

A single strum, and then put the guitar up against the wood and see if their is an instantaneous change in tone.
Then repeat, but start with the guitar on the wood and take it off.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

And yes, I have tried it. Using a slightly different method I found differences in sustain with the different mass.
How is that going with your theory now.

I haven't gotten around to that yet, but I assume it would have to do with the wood absorbing extra vibrations from the strings. How drastic is the effect?

Edit: How big was the difference plugged vs unplugged?

 

[Artie]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

A single strum, and then put the guitar up against the wood and see if their is an instantaneous change in tone.
Then repeat, but start with the guitar on the wood and take it off.

That works.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Depends on the guitar.
But its all part and parcel of the 'structure effects string energy and therefore frequency reproduction and therefore tone'
Most don't seem to understand the same mechanism that makes big strat blocks tone/sustain shifters, or extra mass at the tuners, or different density nut material is exactly the same as what makes wood important. Hardware and nuts have a degree more importance generally as they interact directly with the string.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Depends on the guitar.
But its all part and parcel of the 'structure effects string energy and therefore frequency reproduction and therefore tone'
Most don't seem to understand the same mechanism that makes big strat blocks tone/sustain shifters, or extra mass at the tuners, or different density nut material is exactly the same as what makes wood important. Hardware and nuts have a degree more importance generally as they interact directly with the string.

Couldn't agree more on the last part. The saddles and especially the frets on a guitar can make or break the entire instrument, regardless of how nice the rest of it is.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Thats a playing interface. So it will change the way the guitar handles to mechanically make the notes and hold tune.
In terms of tonal effects the frets are less, and the bulk and material of the neck is much more......as has been seen countless times even on this forum.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

And the utter flaw in any testing is that in this reality you cannot stretch a string into tension without having something solid to anchor it. So there is no 'the sound of the string just by itself' as a reference point.
This is because of the laws of physics......so there is that downside.
But luckily as the string is under the laws of physics we can easily turn to that real science. Done by great minds and following the right method, means and results criteria.
And these laws prove wood matters......period.

So in effect your work has already been completed by others.....aren't you happy??

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

Thats a playing interface. So it will change the way the guitar handles to mechanically make the notes and hold tune.
In terms of tonal effects the frets are less, and the bulk and material of the neck is much more......as has been seen countless times even on this forum.

One time I had some frets replaced on a guitar and the guy forget to replace the 1st fret (never used that tech again) and there was a clear difference. I think it was simply different metal touching it. The frets were brass replaced by stainless steel.

But really, if wood makes a difference so small that people debate if it actually exists, then ya might as well not worry about it. Heck, you can get a Strat to sound like a Lester with decent pedals.

 

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

I'm no expert in any way, shape, or form on the whole tonewood debate, but I'm gonna jump into this s***show anyway.

First a couple of "captain obvious" statements just to show my logic chain.

• The pickups sense the vibration of the strings

• The WAY the strings vibrate is affected by the hardness, density, and mass of the wood(s) to which the bridge and nut are attached (hence the difference in acoustic/unplugged sound).

While I agree that the pickups have a much bigger influence on tone than wood, it only seems logical that, because the wood affects the manner in which the strings vibrate, wood will most certainly color that tone at least to some extent.

Beyond that I think that whether that difference is a big deal or not lies in the ears of the beholder. For some it's a big deal and for others (like me), not so much.

Chistopher, while I tend to loosely agree with you about your end conclusion (that pickups make a bigger difference than wood), I would personally clarify my statement to say that wood makes no (or at least very little) difference TO ME... knowing full well that my ears aren't as fussy about tone as many others.

I think, though, that you're probably ignoring a lot of logical aspects of wood's affect on tone... things that would seem to HAVE to make a difference to the way the string vibrates and therefore to the amplified sound, even if it's not very noticeable.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Finally found out how to end the tonewood debate.

All due respect but the premise is utter nonsense. Scott Grove tried to make the same correlation by touching the guitar to the wall or a table or something. He's like "see it's louder but the plugged in tone didn't change". It's asinine. Touching the guitar to something has absolutely no similarity to actually replacing the body wood (which is under tension) with another piece of wood.