Finish types?

Finish types?

  • Nitro

    Votes: 16 69.6%
  • Poly

    Votes: 3 13.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • Total voters
    23

youngthrasher9

New member
I am just looking for some info on the pros-cons of different finishes, like tonal ups and downs, durability, heat sensitivity...etc Because I don't really have the funds to make expensive mistakes if I am to build/mod a guitar. In the summer, my playing area gets to be like 105 degrees sometimes. Thanks in advance.
 
Re: Finish types?

Are you talking about for bodies or necks, or both? I like nitro for bodies, but not necks.
 
Re: Finish types?

You won't hear any sound difference, and much less if you play with some gain. Nitrocellulose lacquer tends to get cracks over time and the general consensus is that it causes your guitar's wood to age and "breathe" better.
Polyurethane lacquers are much steadier and more resistant to temperature, humidity, physical damage, etc.

In the end it doesn't really matter what you use. If aging is important to you, go with nitro. If durability is your first priority, go with poly.
 
Re: Finish types?

Poly is a more durable finish that will take more abuse while staying "good" looking for longer. If it is applied well, it can look out of sight when it is brand new (e.g. G&Ls), but it wears differently than lacquer (less attractively, IMO). Instead of wearing down bit by bit in a smooth fashion like lacquer, it pretty much resists any gradual wear from friction alone. But it slowly becomes covered in tiny pits, hard-edged chips, and sharp scratches, due to impacts. Then those little cracks and dents will keep their hard edges and fill with dirt and grime and look darker. With lacquer, the finish will actually rub off bit by bit over the years even without damage, just from the friction and oils from your body or clothes. And the damaged areas end up being more smooth around the edges in the end. I also find that the chips and such are easier to keep clean, and that scratches are easier to disguise.

Because of all this, I'd say that if you want your finish to stay looking the newest for the longest time, poly is the way to go. If you are extremely careful with your guitar, and don't give it little knocks and nicks, it will stay looking new longer than you will live. But if you want your finish to gradually "break in" in a smooth way, and for damage to be easier to disguise, lacquer is the way to go.

The feel is very different as well. Even the best and thinnest poly finishes are still plastic-like. They feel more like an impenetrable "shell." Not a good or bad thing, just a matter of preference. Lacquer feels more like an extension of the wood itself to me. But flat-finish poly on necks can give a really nice feel that is not all that different feeling than flat-finish lacquer or worn-in gloss lacquer IME.

I don't believe that the type of finish makes much, if any, difference in tone on solid-body instruments. I've heard too many examples of lacquer-finished guitars that are just not good sounding, and too many examples of poly-finished guitars that are great sounding. And vice versa on both counts. I believe the musical qualities of the chunks of wood themselves matter, as well as the pickups and setups, not the finishes. I have even refinished poly instruments in lacquer, both solid body and nylon-stringed acoustic, and could tell no difference in tone – only in feel.

Over all, I prefer lacquer all the way around (gloss), and I will always use it if I have the choice of which to use. However, I am not a lacquer snob enough to think that a poly finish makes a solid-bodied instrument any worse in quality or tone.
 
Re: Finish types?

Nitro will allow your guitar to breathe better than the Poly, I took my Epiphone Les Paul and sanded down the poly to thin it down since they put it on thick enough for 2 guitars and then repolished it back to a shine and it did make a difference in tone, it became much brighter and more open sounding. My 59 replica I built I did it in nitro and have zero issues, the cracking and checking of nitro takes many years to happen unless you put your guitar in a freezer overnight then take it out into 100 degree heat immediately, otherwise the cracking and checking will take about 30-40 years to happen naturally.
 
Re: Finish types?

105 degrees isnt nothing to worry about.

Poly look roughly the same forever but with time will develop tiny scratches that will dull the shine a bit

Nitro will haze with time but it can be buffed. It can also be repaired where Poly cant.

These are facts and are not disputable.

The rest is all personal anecdotes. For every guy you find that says that finish doesnt matter you will find one that says it does. My personal expierence with stripping the finish off an Ibanez voyager says it does. If the wood being slightly less dense can make a difference then what its wrapped in can also.
 
Re: Finish types?

I don't believe that the type of finish makes much, if any, difference in tone on solid-body instruments. I've heard too many examples of lacquer-finished guitars that are just not good sounding, and too many examples of poly-finished guitars that are great sounding. And vice versa on both counts. I believe the musical qualities of the chunks of wood themselves matter, as well as the pickups and setups, not the finishes. I have even refinished poly instruments in lacquer, both solid body and nylon-stringed acoustic, and could tell no difference in tone – only in feel.

Your really serious? You think the slight differences from one chunk of wood to the next make a difference that can be heard but the type of finish cant?
 
Re: Finish types?

I did a lot of reseach on this subject recently when considering finishes for a guitar i was building. The general concensus seems to be that the thickness of the finish has more impact than the type of finish.

Also it's worth keeping in mind that modern nitros are very different to the original stuff. Many nitros now contain plasticisers to minimise future cracking and crazing, making them closer to poly finishes. The original nitros basically continued to gas off always, until it wore, crazed and flaked off.

Personally i still believe auto acrylic is a sadly-neglected option in the guitar world. Easy to work with and can be applied thin. It spends years outside on metal (cars) expanding and contracting so it should be more than qualified to move with the wood of a guitar.
 
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Re: Finish types?

If you like to know what John Suhr think about finish types;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xTHsNZHVOs

Anyway, according to my experiences the thickness is the key factor in the relation between paint and tone. The thinner, the better. The best way of nitro to achieve thinner coatings is its solvent genre. You sprey a coat and after a while its solvent evaporates and less material remains on the guitar while when you do it with 3 component type polyester, what you spray on the guitar is what you have it after drying :)
 
Re: Finish types?

If you like to know what John Suhr think about finish types;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xTHsNZHVOs

Anyway, according to my experiences the thickness is the key factor in the relation between paint and tone. The thinner, the better. The best way of nitro to achieve thinner coatings is its solvent genre. You sprey a coat and after a while its solvent evaporates and less material remains on the guitar while when you do it with 3 component type polyester, what you spray on the guitar is what you have it after drying :)



This video is a MUST WATCH for everyone who participates in the nitrocellulose lacquer vs. polyester debate.
 
Re: Finish types?

I disagree that you won't hear any tonal difference. Nitro will definitely make an improvement. A good friend of mine just bought a used R8 Les Paul & was unhappy with a few things about it. Mainly the finish. It was a heavy poly based finish. He brought it to a local luthier who stripped the guitars and refinished it in Nitro & the guitar had a whole lot more life to it after that. He also upgraded a few other parts but the bottom line is the wood moves now. Yes Nitro will crack, but mostly due to abuse. The guitars wood is moving under the finish so if the finish is thick, like a Gibson it will begin to crack. Personally I think it looks very cool when this happens.
 
Re: Finish types?

I disagree that you won't hear any tonal difference. Nitro will definitely make an improvement. A good friend of mine just bought a used R8 Les Paul & was unhappy with a few things about it. Mainly the finish. It was a heavy poly based finish. He brought it to a local luthier who stripped the guitars and refinished it in Nitro & the guitar had a whole lot more life to it after that. He also upgraded a few other parts but the bottom line is the wood moves now. Yes Nitro will crack, but mostly due to abuse. The guitars wood is moving under the finish so if the finish is thick, like a Gibson it will begin to crack. Personally I think it looks very cool when this happens.

May it be because of the finish thickness? We had once a customer wanted to refinish his guitar to our custom shop. His guitar was totally bad with thick polyester finish. There was no resonance and vibration. We striped all finish down and spray only two coats of very thin nitro finish. The result was impressive. But to do something like this with equal thickness of polyurethane made nearly the same result, on the other hand. This finish improved the tonality of guitar, not major but particularly on well vibrating but thick finished
guitars, it works...
 
Re: Finish types?

Poly. Hamer, Taylor and many other high end builders do agreat job with it.

Hamer USA's finish is not a Poly/plastic (unless it has changed since Jol left). It is a lacquer finish.

As for the OP 's question, Given a choice I will take a lacquer finish every single time. Personally I like the feel, and slightly less shiny/blingy look to it, irregardless of sonic benefits. Colors/wood grain "pop" better. That said, I have no issues with a very nice acrylic like PRS (USA) uses, because it is so thin.
 
Re: Finish types?

I disagree that you won't hear any tonal difference. Nitro will definitely make an improvement. A good friend of mine just bought a used R8 Les Paul & was unhappy with a few things about it. Mainly the finish. It was a heavy poly based finish. He brought it to a local luthier who stripped the guitars and refinished it in Nitro & the guitar had a whole lot more life to it after that. He also upgraded a few other parts but the bottom line is the wood moves now. Yes Nitro will crack, but mostly due to abuse. The guitars wood is moving under the finish so if the finish is thick, like a Gibson it will begin to crack. Personally I think it looks very cool when this happens.

Let's dive into this post a little...

A stock R8 has a nitro finish...

Before we go into this more can you help me understand a poly finished R8??
 
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Re: Finish types?

Hamer USA's finish is not a Poly/plastic (unless it has changed since Jol left). It is a lacquer finish.

As for the OP 's question, Given a choice I will take a lacquer finish every single time. Personally I like the feel, and slightly less shiny/blingy look to it, irregardless of sonic benefits. Colors/wood grain "pop" better. That said, I have no issues with a very nice acrylic like PRS (USA) uses, because it is so thin.

Hamer has not been lacquer for over a decade. It is actually a hybrid of sorts. This has been discussed a number of times on the Hamer board. They call it a "specially formulated guitar lacquer" that uses things not traditionally thought of nitro for sure.

"There's a lot of different "poly"s out there. Around 91/92 they transitioned from lacquer to a CAB urethane from the now out of business Lawrence McFadden company. Seagraves Coatings bought the LMF formulas and are manufacturing them so maybe they are still using it? Jol would refer to it as Urelac and the tech sheets from LMF called it "Urethane Guitar Lacquer".

http://www.hamerfanclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=48155&hl=finish
 
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Re: Finish types?

Wood does not "breathe"

Lacquer does not "breathe"

There is no sonic difference in the type of finish

Only the thickness of the finish matters.
 
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