Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

[Masta' C]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Frank you are the tech ultimate tech man. Tell me, why in the demo they have posted here do the Fishman Humbuckers sound so good and the single coil sound only marginally better than standard coil pickups?

That's sort of a loaded question. I think the answer you'll get will be along the lines of "needing to hear and see the pickups in person to better understand their particular clarity and character". However, video comparisons CAN give you some idea about the recorded nature of pickups when the comparison is done well.

In my response, I was careful to say "in the context of that specific comparison" because I realize that the another demo example may very well come along that has the Fluence appearing superior to the Antiquities. Doubtful, but always possible.

I will say that trying to recreate the classic sounds of true vintage single coils, complete with all the dynamics, character and nuances that made them unique, is an uphill battle once you leave the physical design that made those single coils behave that way. That's why pickups like the Antiquities and SSL-1 excel at recreating those tones...they're made the same way as the originals were.

Once you go to any of the "noiseless" technologies, something almost always has to give, even if the difference is subtle. Not that they can't sound "great" or "close enough" that it's difficult to tell the difference, but any change in design is going to incur compromises and potentially impart characteristics that stray from the originals.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Well, the first thing I can say is that what I'm reading in this thread about the Strats is stuff I've ONLY heard from people who have watched YouTube videos. I've literally never heard it from people who've played them or been standing there when someone else plays them. So unless I'm in the room with those guys, it's hard to say. It's a new Fret King guitar, Asian production vs a Fender, I don't know how long his cable is, whether he has the high frequency tilt on the Fluence...If you like a warm Strat sound, you'll like Voice 2 and the HF tilt ON because that's like a warm Strat with a longer guitar cable.

Most of what I hear are people saying the opposite. People say things like it's THE Strat sound they've always wished for in their head. And I mean SERIOUS tone masters. I was at Fishman awhile back with Sonny Landreth, and he brought in his '65 too. Thats about as real as it gets. And he's hearing what we're hearing, not what this YouTube video shows.

it's a YouTube world right now. I've heard demos that sounded amazing, and played the real thing and the gear was terrible. Then I go back to the demo and I can hear how they "fixed" what sounds bad about the gear. Or I can hear that they chose a certain guitar to demo a pedal because it sounds terrible with other types of guitars. It's awesome because we have info at our fingertips but you're slave to however the video maker and YouTube processing presents the gear.

So B2D is nailing it. He's heard them himself AND saying you have to hear/play them. Once someone plays them for themselves, then they see the YouTube videos in a different light. Same is true with pedals.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Frank, I always love your reassurances

Fluence is the only "innovation" that has gotten me excited in a long time! Can't wait to try them.

Did you happen to see my previous questions?

Frank, any chance you can break down the attributes of the Modern Alnico compared to the Classic?

Also, is the Townsend bridge model's "heavy metal" voice at all similar to either voicing on the regular Modern Ceramic?

Thx

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Darth man, you seem to be real connected with the Fishman products. Do you have any links to demos of the single coils you could share with me. I can't seem to find much in my searches.

thanks for the sentiment, but no more connected than with any other product or brand.

tinkered briefly with the idea of demos, but it's hard to have full confidence in something I'm hearing over a PC or a tablet or smartphone. that's why I know I'll be hearing some with my own ears in about a week and hope to be able to speak from experience then. :wink: just like I can't comment on the Black Winter set based off any online demo, but I hope to be able to speak from experience when the shipment arrives today.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

FRANK, any chance you can you break down the attributes of the Modern Alnico compared to the Classic?

Also, is the Townsend bridge model's "heavy metal" voice at all similar to either voicing on the regular Modern Ceramic?

Thx

I assume you mean the Modern Alnico vs the Classic neck? First the magnetic circuit is different. The Classic is a base magnet with poles, the Modern is a base magnet with blades.

The Classic neck V1 has all the ideal characteristics of PAF types. The Modern Alnico V1 is very smooth, and has that smooth, round EQ curve like an EMG85 has, but as I always say with Fluence, it has the Fluence stuff. So even if you hated an EMG85 you could still love Fluence because it's absent all the stuff you hate about the other pickup(s).

BOTH the Classic neck and the Modern Alnico Voice 2's have what we like to call "Fluence only" voices; sounds you could never wind a pickup to have traditionally. They are not the same voice as one another, each is unique but the basic premise is some push in the lower mids like a warm neck HB would have, while simultaneously having insanely clear top end brilliance. With a wire-wound coil you can play with a LOT of variables, but if a pickup maker is being honest theyll tell you that when you shoot for lower midrange, the treble is sacrificed. In addition, even a humbucker with low winds and good brilliance still has a steep fall-off slope on the treble inherent to the resonant peak. Fluence doesn't have that, so we can open it up as brilliant as we want. And it's not an artificial boost of what isn't there.

All of Devin's voices are unique as well. The closest to his metal Voice 1 is the Modern Voice 1. But the Devin's also hybridize one blade, with one row of poles. So the magnetic circuit has got some chaos from the poles and some smoothness of the blades. When they coil split, they split to the pole piece (outside) coil.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Frank, why are there so few Fluence p'ups for sale in Europe? Order-only; nobody seem to stock'em.

And not even on the importer's catalog in Italy?

http://www.ekomusicgroup.com/viewdoc.asp?co_id=95912

This page's been like this since two years? Forever?

Is it a cultural thing...?

 

[callmestormymonday]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Well, the first thing I can say is that what I'm reading in this thread about the Strats is stuff I've ONLY heard from people who have watched YouTube videos. I've literally never heard it from people who've played them or been standing there when someone else plays them. So unless I'm in the room with those guys, it's hard to say. It's a new Fret King guitar, Asian production vs a Fender, I don't know how long his cable is, whether he has the high frequency tilt on the Fluence...If you like a warm Strat sound, you'll like Voice 2 and the HF tilt ON because that's like a warm Strat with a longer guitar cable.

Most of what I hear are people saying the opposite. People say things like it's THE Strat sound they've always wished for in their head. And I mean SERIOUS tone masters. I was at Fishman awhile back with Sonny Landreth, and he brought in his '65 too. Thats about as real as it gets. And he's hearing what we're hearing, not what this YouTube video shows.

it's a YouTube world right now. I've heard demos that sounded amazing, and played the real thing and the gear was terrible. Then I go back to the demo and I can hear how they "fixed" what sounds bad about the gear. Or I can hear that they chose a certain guitar to demo a pedal because it sounds terrible with other types of guitars. It's awesome because we have info at our fingertips but you're slave to however the video maker and YouTube processing presents the gear.

So B2D is nailing it. He's heard them himself AND saying you have to hear/play them. Once someone plays them for themselves, then they see the YouTube videos in a different light. Same is true with pedals.

Why doesn't Fishman make a good 16 bit /48 kHz MP3 A/B test of their "solid state" pickups vs. coil wound pickups and post it on their WEB site?

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Hah! That's the first I've heard that term used. I can't think of any tube pickups, wouldn't all pickups be solid state?

One reason for a company not to make comparison videos is sort of a code of honor not to denigrate competitors. Usually if you see that kind of comparison made by the company themselves, people get skeptical, and assume that you created the best case scenario in which your product looks like it "wins". Duncan doesn't have videos of EMG's vs Blackouts, but there are some that have been made by 3rd party demo guys (for better or worse)

 

[ztevie]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Regarding the modern neck version, how's the clarity and attack when doing fast solo runs on the lower strings? I've always had that problem with neck pickups. I love the creamy fluid feeling when playing stuff high up the neck on the lighter strings, but when doing fast runs on low E, A and D strings notes tend to mush together...
I'd hope this pickup might at least partially take care of that problem, if it's so clear as is claimed?

 

[callmestormymonday]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Hah! That's the first I've heard that term used. I can't think of any tube pickups, wouldn't all pickups be solid state?

One reason for a company not to make comparison videos is sort of a code of honor not to denigrate competitors. Usually if you see that kind of comparison made by the company themselves, people get skeptical, and assume that you created the best case scenario in which your product looks like it "wins". Duncan doesn't have videos of EMG's vs Blackouts, but there are some that have been made by 3rd party demo guys (for better or worse)

Just my way of thinking about the two different pickups. The Fishmans as I understand it are based on two 48-layer coils printed on stacks of thin circuit boards that create the magnetic field so that translates in my mind to a solid state sort of arrangement. The standard pickup uses variably wound coils of wire to create the magnetic field and in my mind seem less like a solid state arrangement, not a tube arrangement but something in between if ya get what I mean...I don't even know if I get what I mean.

I don't mean fishman would put on their demo here is a Duncan whatever and here is our whatever see how much better ours sounds. That would be pretty ugly. I think they could just say here is a comparably priced wire wound pickup and here's what it sounds like and here's what ours sounds like using 16 bit 48 kHz sampling rate. and per haps point out the differences and provide graphs of important stuff, I don't know what but a pickup scientist would.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Regarding the modern neck version, how's the clarity and attack when doing fast solo runs on the lower strings? I've always had that problem with neck pickups. I love the creamy fluid feeling when...I'd hope this pickup might at least partially take care of that problem, if it's so clear as is claimed?

Honestly it is like...EXACTLY what you're wanting. Voice 1 and Voice 2 both stay clear under gain, Voice 2 is super fluid and liquidy in the low mids AND has crisp and dynamic top end at the same time.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

why are there so few Fluence p'ups for sale in Europe? Order-only; nobody seem to stock 'em.

Fluence pickups are appearing in the UK but almost always in pre-packaged pairs or trios rather than individually. Hence, there is no easy way to mix and match, say, a Classic and a Modern humbucker or to add a single coil-sized pickup to form a HSH set.

Even when the pickups are available over here, the importer/distributors convert the Dollar prices into Pounds Sterling. (Currently, a mark up of over forty per cent.)

I appreciate the "gotta try 'em in person" remarks but there is no opportunity to do that before buying some. Any more than a Brit can try out a Falbo Alpha guitar before commissioning one.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Just my way of thinking about the two different pickups...I don't even know if I get what I mean...

LOL I know how you feel. Probably the best way to think of it is that it's individual wire coils that just happen to be using the wafer-thin PCB material simply as the delivery method, but that the coil is "wound" one complete layer at a time. And the coils made this way are exponentially more consistent. That coil methodology doesn't "produce" the magnetic field though. These pickups are fairly traditional in the way the magnetic fields are created. Though there are very highly nuanced, it's still Alnico or Ceramic magnets with or without blades/poles, etc.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Frank. If a person wanted to use Fluence pickups in conjunction with a PRS five-way pickup selector switch (any version), how would the outputs be configured to determine which coil is operational in the various split modes? Would it be necessary to do the equivalent of flipping the magnet in one pickup? Is this even possible in Fluence designs? Would I be correct in thinking that the old Inside Coils, In Series, In Phase option is a non-starter with Fluence humbuckers?

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Honestly it is like...EXACTLY what you're wanting. Voice 1 and Voice 2 both stay clear under gain, Voice 2 is super fluid and liquidy in the low mids AND has crisp and dynamic top end at the same time.

Is that with the assumption that the Modern Albico is in the neck?

When Ken Susi told me about players swapping them around, I knew I'd have to try that as well and is also why I tested/reviewed them also in all-alnico and all-ceramic.

Although I personally prefer the all-alnico set, I think a lot of players would benefit from trying a ceramic in the neck as well. Designing the Modern set that way turned out to be a good call.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Fluence pickups are appearing in the UK but almost always in pre-packaged pairs or trios rather than individually...I appreciate the "gotta try 'em in person" remarks but there is no opportunity to do that before buying some. Any more than a Brit can try out a Falbo Alpha guitar before commissioning one.

Agreed. Unfortunately they're probably somewhat at the mercy of whatever a distributor wants to order. The same thing happens with Dimarzio, Duncan, etc. you might have markets that just don't stock certain models, etc. I used to hear sometimes "we can't get Blackouts" or Antiquities or whatever. And then sometimes I'd hear about areas where you couldn't get Dimarzios, or you could ONLY get Dimarzios LOL.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Fluence...with a PRS five-way pickup selector switch...Is this even possible in Fluence designs?

Its a complex wiring diagram, if you're getting ready to install a set contact me outside the forum. But the short answer is yes, you can do inside OR outside coils with Fluence. The two solder pads underneath (the only non-pin connectors) are for the coil junction, and the "hot" so that you can select either coil. You are correct that it's harder/possibly not worth it to try to get one coil to be in series with another from the other pickup. But you CAN do things like take one coil from one, plus one coil from the other, and pass them both through the same preamp, effectively mixing them passively instead of after each preamp. It's usually better to mix them after the voicing.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Thank you.

I have not actually used most of the usual PRS coil permutations since I went over to a Freeway 3x3-03 switch. I just wanted to know whether the PRS thing was even possible. I might try it with a Schaller Megaswitch P in a Patrick Eggle Berlin project.

 

[B2D]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

So B2D is nailing it. He's heard them himself AND saying you have to hear/play them. Once someone plays them for themselves, then they see the YouTube videos in a different light. Same is true with pedals.

Damn right! That's why I'm the resident Riffologist. (see gloss)

 

[tonaholic]

Re: Fishman Fluence Modern Humbucker -any updates, it's been a couple of years

Well, the first thing I can say is that what I'm reading in this thread about the Strats is stuff I've ONLY heard from people who have watched YouTube videos. I've literally never heard it from people who've played them or been standing there when someone else plays them. So unless I'm in the room with those guys, it's hard to say. It's a new Fret King guitar, Asian production vs a Fender, I don't know how long his cable is, whether he has the high frequency tilt on the Fluence...If you like a warm Strat sound, you'll like Voice 2 and the HF tilt ON because that's like a warm Strat with a longer guitar cable.

Most of what I hear are people saying the opposite. People say things like it's THE Strat sound they've always wished for in their head. And I mean SERIOUS tone masters. I was at Fishman awhile back with Sonny Landreth, and he brought in his '65 too. Thats about as real as it gets. And he's hearing what we're hearing, not what this YouTube video shows.

it's a YouTube world right now. I've heard demos that sounded amazing, and played the real thing and the gear was terrible. Then I go back to the demo and I can hear how they "fixed" what sounds bad about the gear. Or I can hear that they chose a certain guitar to demo a pedal because it sounds terrible with other types of guitars. It's awesome because we have info at our fingertips but you're slave to however the video maker and YouTube processing presents the gear.

So B2D is nailing it. He's heard them himself AND saying you have to hear/play them. Once someone plays them for themselves, then they see the YouTube videos in a different light. Same is true with pedals.

Wow. That right there has such a ring of truth to it and knowing some your experience / circles, I'm going to try a set on that post right there.

Do you feel the new tele set is similarly inspiring?