Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

A "few winds" and a layer of tape do not 1/2" make.

The specs for the original Gibsons are out there in many places - the Brosnac book, maybe even one of the Erlewine books.

This is a sensitive area for me because I've been trying to make these since '98. It is simply not possible to take a standard P90 bobbin, saw the ends off, and have it fit under a humbucker cover. The coil configuration must be changed, even if slightly.

I read Evan's input as "it's as close as it can possibly be" - that is true. I have disassembled HB-format P90s from almost every maker out there (some of the newer boutique models excepted) and none of them are exact. The PC and Kerstings are the closest.

Why is it so hard to accept that it ain't exactly the same? If you choose to believe they're identical after looking at that photo, well, we're done discussing it I guess.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Bridge and neck bobbins vary in size, as do various plastic bobbin molds. As Evan said, they're using their own P-90 bobbins to make the Phat Cat. They have yet to make an actual "Phat Cat" bobbin, so to the extent that their current production SP90 pickups are P-90's, so is this Phat Cat. Argue about minor dimensional differences all you want. There are the same variations between individual examples of Gibson's old P90's as there are between Gibson's old PAF's. So eventually it becomes the same tired debate as "Is the Seth Lover/59/Burstbucker/Dimarzio PAF etc. really like a vintage Gibson PAF?"

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

What pictures are you looking at?

This one:

http://guitardiner.com/cgi-bin/gforu...statt_id=3899;

I took the side-by-side posted earlier and cut-and-pasted vertically.

The PC coil is more like a half-inch narrower - look at the dimensions on the SD site - P90 bobbin is 3.155" wide, humbuckers baseplate is 2.695, difference is 0.46". The picture is fairly clear that they are both wound to a similar distance from the ends of their respective flatwork. Even if the

Since you have both, how about you measure the coil width on a vintage-type P90 and that on a PC?

Take the picture and cut the PC coil out, superimpose it on the P90 - it's significantly narrower.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

A "few winds" and a layer of tape do not 1/2" make.

The specs for the original Gibsons are out there in many places - the Brosnac book, maybe even one of the Erlewine books.

This is a sensitive area for me because I've been trying to make these since '98. It is simply not possible to take a standard P90 bobbin, saw the ends off, and have it fit under a humbucker cover. The coil configuration must be changed, even if slightly.

I read Evan's input as "it's as close as it can possibly be" - that is true. I have disassembled HB-format P90s from almost every maker out there (some of the newer boutique models excepted) and none of them are exact. The PC and Kerstings are the closest.

Why is it so hard to accept that it ain't exactly the same? If you choose to believe they're identical after looking at that photo, well, we're done discussing it I guess.

I don't get what 3/8" or 1/2" you're talking about, unless you mean the height of the overall assembly, which has nothing to do with the size, height or width of the coil.

There's something sitting between the magnets and the baseplate in the P90's in those photos though I don't know what that would be since I've looked at many P90's and I make P90's and the magnets just sit flat on the baseplate and the polepieces protrude through the bottom of the baseplate, unlike your photos.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Why not just look at the dimensions here?

Phat Cat:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/images/dimensions/phatcat.gif

SP90:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/images/dimensions/sp90.gif

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

This one:

http://guitardiner.com/cgi-bin/gforu...statt_id=3899;

I took the side-by-side posted earlier and cut-and-pasted vertically.

The PC coil is more like a half-inch narrower - look at the dimensions on the SD site - P90 bobbin is 3.155" wide, humbuckers baseplate is 2.695, difference is 0.46". The picture is fairly clear that they are both wound to a similar distance from the ends of their respective flatwork. Even if the

Since you have both, how about you measure the coil width on a vintage-type P90 and that on a PC?

Take the picture and cut the PC coil out, superimpose it on the P90 - it's significantly narrower.

You are using confusing terminology. Apparently you are talking about the LENGTH of the bobbin when you say "width", which is OF COURSE shorter, because as we said, they cut the ends off.

As for the inside part where the wire is, there is very, very little plastic between the coil and the 1st and 6th string polepieces, and since the spacing on a P90 is pretty much always 49-50 mm, that would make it impossible for there to be a 1/2" or even 3/8" difference there.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

OK, look at this:

The black lines are the width of the PC coil, the blue are the P90. It's pretty obvious that the P90 coil is wider than the entire PC baseplate, there is NO WAY a cut down P90 will fit under a humbucker cover without altering the coil geometry - which is what Duncan has done, however subtly.

FWIW I agree that it doesn't matter much. But consider the two schools of thought - one side says, none of this makes any big difference (I'm in this camp). The other side says cryogenically treated pickguard screws are important tone contributors.

There was a thread here on Trembuckers v. regular humbuckers recently; one point was made that Duncan created the wider bobbins to keep the coil-to-outer pole distance the same, rather than shaving down the inside of the bobbin like everyone else does. Well, you can't have it both ways, right? Either this is important and shaving down the inside of the PC bobbin is a problem, or it isn't a big deal and Trembuckers are unnecessarly wide.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

You are using confusing terminology. Apparently you are talking about the LENGTH of the bobbin when you say "width", which is OF COURSE shorter, because as we said, they cut the ends off.

As for the inside part where the wire is, there is very, very little plastic between the coil and the 1st and 6th string polepieces, and since the spacing on a P90 is pretty much always 49-50 mm, that would make it impossible for there to be a 1/2" or even 3/8" difference there.

Yes, the inner dimensions must be the same, or at least very very similar. But it is clear that the OUTER dimension of the coil is NOT the same.

 

[BachToRock]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Oh yeah... I forgot to mention that the Phat Cat is not only a NECK pickup, but I removed a signifigant portion of the coil trying to unwind it. Those factors combined with the black tape would account for any diffrerence.
I could waste more precious time taking photos of other examples such as a modern production JB without the black paper tape where the coil is narrow compared to an 80' one that has the black paper tape which makes it look like the coil almost fills the bobbin... but it's like treading water here... if anything is slightly different in the actual coil, it would be that the wire used in the Cat has a thinner insulation which will affect the tone slightly... I think the main point is that the A2 softens up the aggressive traditional P-90 tone in a way that some players don't like.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Yes, the inner dimensions must be the same, or at least very very similar. But it is clear that the OUTER dimension of the coil is NOT the same.

That depends entirely on how much wire you put on the coil, and how much tension is on the wire, how heavily you scatter the wind, etc., which is all about the winding process and nothing at all about the bobbin itself, which is the same dimension as a P90 bobbin (because as Evan says, it IS a P90 bobbin), just with the ends cut off so it can fit under a humbucker-sized cover.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

That depends entirely on how much wire you put on the coil, and how much tension is on the wire, how heavily you scatter the wind, etc., which is all about the winding process and nothing at all about the bobbin itself, which is the same dimension as a P90 bobbin (because as Evan says, it IS a P90 bobbin), just with the ends cut off so it can fit under a humbucker-sized cover.

...and if you wind tighter with no scatter, it's different, is it not?

I'll stipulate that the bobbins are the same - wrong terminology on my part. But the coils clearly are NOT the same...are they? Tell me how you can take that P90 in the picture and cut it down to fit on the PC baseplate without changing the coil in some way.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Oh yeah... I forgot to mention that the Phat Cat is not only a NECK pickup, but I removed a signifigant portion of the coil trying to unwind it. Those factors combined with the black tape would account for any diffrerence.

How will that account for the fact that the P90 coil is bigger than the entire PC baseplate? The black tape is what, about 0.003" thick? Maybe 0.005" with the wax?

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Oh yeah... I forgot to mention that the Phat Cat is not only a NECK pickup, but I removed a signifigant portion of the coil trying to unwind it. Those factors combined with the black tape would account for any diffrerence.
I could waste more precious time taking photos of other examples such as a modern production JB without the black paper tape where the coil is narrow compared to an 80' one that has the black paper tape which makes it look like the coil almost fills the bobbin... but it's like treading water here... if anything is slightly different in the actual coil, it would be that the wire used in the Cat has a thinner insulation which will affect the tone slightly... I think the main point is that the A2 softens up the aggressive traditional P-90 tone in a way that some players don't like.

I doubt there's any difference in the insulation. Everybody uses single-build (one-layer) wire unless in rare cases they want an unusually dark tone, when they will go to double-build.

My theory on the main sound difference with the Phat Cat or any bucker-slot 90 is just the way it's mounted. Humbuckers and bucker-slot 90's have a pickup ring between them and the wood while P90's -- whether soapboar or dogear -- are mounted directly into the wood. One way to find out is to directly mount your Phat Cat to the wood of your guitar, the same way some guitars have their humbuckers mounted right in the wood without a pickup ring. Just drill two holes in the guitar right under where the ears of the baseplate go, and put regular sharp-ended screws (use real P90 mount screws) through the ear holes with a spring between the ear and the wood.

I haven't tried that myself but I bet it would get a lot closer.

Also, I agree with Evan. The Phat Cat still gives you some single coil noise but the cover takes away a lot of it. My regular P90's are noisier.

As for the covers, Duncan uses covers that are pretty transparent tone-wise and my Phat Cat is plenty clear on top. I think the cover has little to no effect on the Phat Cat's tone.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

The difference is less than 1/4" from each side of the bobbin using the bobbin width measurements from the links I posted. .205 to be exact.

I'm no pickup expert but I believe there's plenty of room on each side to knock that much off and not hit the coil windings.

The P90 bobbin (not coil) is as wide (3.300") as the entire Phat Cat assembly (3.315"). Not much difference there.

The fact of the matter is, it's still a P90 with a little trimmed off the sides.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

I'm no pickup expert but I believe there's plenty of room on each side to knock that much off and not hit the coil windings.

Show me how, in the picture above, the P90 coil will fit on the PC baseplate.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Show me how, in the picture above, the P90 coil will fit on the PC baseplate.

Real easy. Look at the dimensions in the links I posted above. The string spacing is the same so no problem there (since the Phat Cat bobbin started as a SP90). What you have left is that less than 1/4" on each side of the bobbin. Just saw that off and there you have it. The baseplate just needs the screw holes in the middle rather than to one side like standard humbuckers.

What is misleading in those pictures is the angle and distance for each pickup. The measurements on the Duncan site for both are much more accurate and easier to see.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

The thing is that you cut the ends off BEFORE you wind the pickup.

AdmiralB, the PC baseplate is just a humbucker baseplate with the polepiece holes punched in the center instead of off to one side. There's plenty of room for a P90 bobbin once you cut the ends off. I know this because I've done it.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Except that the Duncan measurements are covers and baseplates, not coils.

How about this version?

There are no perspective issues, I lined the poles up, and it's obvious that the P90 coil is wider than the red lines indicating the edges of the PC baseplate.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

The thing is that you cut the ends off BEFORE you wind the pickup.

AdmiralB, the PC baseplate is just a humbucker baseplate with the polepiece holes punched in the center instead of off to one side. There's plenty of room for a P90 bobbin once you cut the ends off. I know this because I've done it.

AAARRRRGGG!! <pulls out some hair>

I know that! What I'm saying is that a P90 coil will not fit on a humbucker baseplate. A P90 coil is too long by about a quarter-inch. It will hang over the edges. To make the PC, they had to alter the coil geometry to make it fit.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Except that the Duncan measurements are covers and baseplates, not coils.

How about this version?

There are no perspective issues, I lined the poles up, and it's obvious that the P90 coil is wider than the red lines indicating the edges of the PC baseplate.

The PC you see above is owned by Bach to Rock and he has said repeatedly that he removed a lot of the wire from the picture in question.

Also, your two red lines are not parallel. They are farther apart at the top then at the bottom, which distorts the comparison a great deal.

Further, the P90 in the picture is probably also wound up over 9k, maybe 9.5k -- and I concede from direct experience that it is extremely difficult to impossible to get that much wire on a Phat Cat bobbin because of the space constraints at the two ends.