Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

[BachToRock]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Trust me... that black tape is the only difference, it's a lot thicker than you think...
The Bridge Phat Cat coil likely is wound right to the edge of the bobbin just like the Brobuckers must have been... 5k of 42 gauge on a traditional humbucker bobbin is pushing it...

 

[ErikH]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Covers on, covers off. The numbers would change a little bit but at least both diagrams show apples to apples (both with covers on). So, if the covers were off, I'd expect similar results, just a tad smaller numbers.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

The PC you see above is owned by Bach to Rock and he has said repeatedly that he removed a lot of the wire from the picture in question.

Well, actually he only said it after I pointed out that it's a lot smaller.

Also, your two red lines are not parallel. They are farther apart at the top then at the bottom, which distorts the comparison a great deal.

That may be, but if so it distorts the picture in the PC's favor by making the P90 coil appear smaller than it actually is.

Further, the P90 in the picture is probably also wound up over 9k, maybe 9.5k -- and I concede from direct experience that it is extremely difficult to impossible to get that much wire on a Phat Cat bobbin because of the space constraints at the two ends.

Doesn't it seem kind of..silly to assess the resistance of a coil from picture that is covered in black tape? First I say the PC coil is smaller - then he says "well, I unwound some of it". Then I say the P90 coil is too big to fit, and you say "well, it's an overwound P90". Can you blame be for being somewhat...dubious?

Rather than argue further - I challenge anyone to take a 'vintage' style P90 and find a coil that will fit under a humbucker cover. SOMEBODY out there must have one they can measure. I don't really feel like taking one out of a guitar to do so, and even if I do I suspect I'll be accused of showing an overwound or otherwise 'ringer' pickup

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Trust me... that black tape is the only difference, it's a lot thicker than you think

I've been working with that tape for over ten years. I'm familiar with its thickness.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Covers on, covers off. The numbers would change a little bit but at least both diagrams show apples to apples (both with covers on). So, if the covers were off, I'd expect similar results, just a tad smaller numbers.

So, you're saying that the PC coil is a half-inch shorter/narrower/whatever? I think that's my point.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Well, actually he only said it after I pointed out that it's a lot smaller.

In other words, he's lying, and you're way out of line for saying that, not to mention just plain wrong about that. Before I started winding my own, I had a Phat Cat neck which is +/-8.0k stock, and to my ear it was a little too hot and muddy. I sent it to MJ and had her rewind it to 7.0k and it sounded great.

BachtoRock had a thread a while back about wanting to "de-mud" his neck Phat Cat and I told him about what I had done on mine. He decided to try to just take those 1,000 or so turns off the coil himself and it turned out badly. I then offered to rewind it for him. He hasn't taken me up on that yet, but I digress.

Anyway, yes, he DID remove a lot of wire from his PC and I knew about this long before this discussion started.

That may be, but if so it distorts the picture in the PC's favor by making the P90 coil appear smaller than it actually is.

You've got it backwards. It makes the Phat Cat appear smaller than it actually is.

Doesn't it seem kind of..silly to assess the resistance of a coil from picture that is covered in black tape? First I say the PC coil is smaller - then he says "well, I unwound some of it". Then I say the P90 coil is too big to fit, and you say "well, it's an overwound P90". Can you blame be for being somewhat...dubious?

I guess I'm a liar too, as is Evan, apparently.

It isn't silly at all if you are a winder and have actually tried these things. On my first shot at it, I couldn't get more than high 7's on my Phat Cat "clone". 9.0-9.5k is a little overwound but not unusual for a P90, but that much #42 would definitely hang way outside the end of a Phat Cat and would not fit under the cover. 8.5k would appear to be the max. Duncan may grind down the inside ends a little to get the 8.5k they get on the PC bridge model, I don't know. But that's what I will try when I make another one.

I challenge anyone to take a 'vintage' style P90 and find a coil that will fit under a humbucker cover.

I'm not sure what you mean by "find a coil" but as we have said 20 times now, all you have to do is cut the ends off a standard P90 bobbin and it fits perfectly.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

To make the PC, they had to alter the coil geometry to make it fit.

Stop saying that. What we all must concede is that SOME P90's are wound too wide to fit on a humbucker baseplate, and SOME P90's aren't. But they aren't any less of a P90. I have personally fit P90's onto humbucker chassis because I've made my own Phat Cat style pickups. These were ALREADY WOUND, and I snipped off the edges. So that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

You want to say that "everything makes a difference" but you won't concede that even 1950's P90's are very different from eachother, not to mention variations from then until now, and string spacing differences.

Fitting a P90 in a humbucker housing is a VERY close fit. I agree there, that's why a slightly looser wind, or a 9k+ wind can't fit. I concede that, but you're looking at a neck Phat Cat, which is "underwound" already, and some winds have been removed. So please stop drawing lines and asserting there's 1/4" difference in the wind size, because there's not. Guys like Zhang, BTR and myself are well versed in coil geometry. Yes, he's qualified to tell you that's probably a 9k+ wind, with excess tape, and perhaps even a loose wind.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

I think the key issues here are this:
#1 - The Phat Cat is an A2 mag, compared with the more typical A5
#2 There are design differences (slight as they may be) with the lengh, hight, depth of the wind
#3 The cover is hum reducing

All of these things contribute more or less to a Phat Cat being somewhat different than the "Typical" P-90 sound we think of from our favorite/classic P-90's

But: It IS a p-90 and has a very P-90 sound!

All good????

 

[JeffB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

This is why I like Humbuckers :laugh2:

I think the mag difference would be significant..lord knows it is in a humbucker. I didn't care for the cats that I heard in my buddies paula. I much preferred his stock 56 RI. Now of course..two different guitars...but acoustically they were pretty similar...typical good Historic quality wood. The Phats didn't have the rounder low end..they were more full in the mids (a little), and didn't "snarl"...an A5 mag very well may put them in the same territory as the Gibbo P90.

I'll stick with my buckers though

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Pop some A5's in a Phat Cat and mount it directly to the wood and I think it would be REALLY close, and with a bit less hum to boot.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

You've got it backwards. It makes the Phat Cat appear smaller than it actually is.

It depends upon your frame of reference - you're saying the lines are in the proper places at the top, and converge as they go down. I'm saying they're in the proper positions on the bottom, and diverge on the way up.

This is where the written word doesn't work for what I'm trying to convey.

I don't know either of you guys, I don't know the history of that particular pickup. I know I made a statement, and he told me that I didn't know what I was talking about and posted that picture as proof. After two or three posts where I said that the picture proved a point I was trying to make, he said that it is not a stock pickup. How would you, in the absence of any personal knowledge, read that?

Regarding the P90 - you are making assumptions - I'm accusing you of nothing other than claiming you know things that I do not see possible. I assumed the picture was of standard units (if we're discussing standard pickups, why post a picture of nonstandard pickups?); clearly I was wrong about the PC. But about the P90 - how do you know it isn't 16K and 44? Unless it's yours, or you built it (either or both of which may be true, but so far have gone unspoken), how would you know? You are making an educated guess based upon your experience.

I'm not accusing Evan of lying, I'm suggesting nothing more than hitting the high notes. Let me try to be exact - I am saying that a Duncan SP90-1, or Gibson P90, or Rio Jazzbar, or any traditional 10000-turn, 42AWG P90 wound on a standard P90 bobbin, will not fit under a humbucker/PC cover after cutting the bobbin down. How's that?

Are there P90s that WOULD fit? I'm sure there are. Underwind with 42, it'll fit. Use smaller wire, sure. But the question as I interpreted it - and maybe this is where my problem starts - is whether the PC identical to a regular P90, and the answer given is that, aside from the A2s (which pre-'55 P90s had anyway), yes it is. And I don't believe that is exactly true.

Now, to frank - if you read what I wrote, I said repeatedly that I DO NOT BELIEVE IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE. There are lots of guys on this forum who do, however, believe EVERYTHING makes a difference. And I'm saying you can't have it both ways.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

So, you're saying that the PC coil is a half-inch shorter/narrower/whatever? I think that's my point.

Actually, less than half-inch, less than quarter-inch per side. That's actually not a lot at all.

On a side note, I'd LOVE to hear an A5 Phat Cat. It's sounds nice as-is, with the A2, but I like A5 P-90's better.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

5k of 42 gauge on a traditional humbucker bobbin is pushing it...

Most of the time true, and usually 4.7-4.8k is the max.

But Guitar Jones sells a 49.2mm spaced bobbin that is unusually tall. You can get 5.6k worth of #42 on them with room for more.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Pop some A5's in a Phat Cat and mount it directly to the wood

Yup..that makes a diff too! didn't think about that in the case of my buddies paulas!

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

5k of 42 gauge on a traditional humbucker bobbin is pushing it...

??? Where did this come up?

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Actually, less than half-inch, less than quarter-inch per side. That's actually not a lot at all.

That's what I meant. And I agree, not a lot.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

All good????

All good with me:beerchug:

I don't have any PCs now; I had a Hamer Newport with them at one time, I've had P94s, and I have a set of Kersting's HBP-90s - he's the only guy I know who will do them with F-spacing (and yes, the coil is taller and somewhat differently shaped). They're 7.5k neck, 9.5 bridge, I had them made with A3, but wound up swapping out for A5 in the bridge. I wish I had done that with the bridge PC.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

It depends upon your frame of reference - you're saying the lines are in the proper places at the top, and converge as they go down. I'm saying they're in the proper positions on the bottom, and diverge on the way up.

Use parallel lines and the confusion on that point ends.

I don't know either of you guys, I don't know the history of that particular pickup. I know I made a statement, and he told me that I didn't know what I was talking about and posted that picture as proof.

Your main claim was that the bobbin must be taller than a standard P90 bobbin, and thus implying that it was a specially made/purpose-built bobbin. Evan says it's not, and on disassembling my Phat Cat, it's very clear that he's right that it's nothing but a standard P90 bobbin with the ends band-sawed off. It is the same height as the P90 bobbins I have in my shop.

After two or three posts where I said that the picture proved a point I was trying to make, he said that it is not a stock pickup.

Bach isn't lying. He definitely removed turns from that coil. Deal with it.

How would you, in the absence of any personal knowledge, read that?

I would read it as, hey maybe I should directly compare a real P90 with a real Phat Cat to make sure this is the case before I accuse another member of making something up.

Regarding the P90 - you are making assumptions - I'm accusing you of nothing other than claiming you know things that I do not see possible. I assumed the picture was of standard units (if we're discussing standard pickups, why post a picture of nonstandard pickups?); clearly I was wrong about the PC. But about the P90 - how do you know it isn't 16K and 44? Unless it's yours, or you built it (either or both of which may be true, but so far have gone unspoken), how would you know? You are making an educated guess based upon your experience.

Even if it was 16k #44, it would still not be the standard 8.5k P90 you were implying it was, in which case my point still stands.

I'm not accusing Evan of lying, I'm suggesting nothing more than hitting the high notes. Let me try to be exact - I am saying that a Duncan SP90-1, or Gibson P90, or Rio Jazzbar, or any traditional 10000-turn, 42AWG P90 wound on a standard P90 bobbin, will not fit under a humbucker/PC cover after cutting the bobbin down. How's that?

If 10,000 turns = +/-8.5k at room temperature, then you're still off the mark, and the bridge Phat Cat is ironclad proof.

Now, to frank - if you read what I wrote, I said repeatedly that I DO NOT BELIEVE IT MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE. There are lots of guys on this forum who do, however, believe EVERYTHING makes a difference. And I'm saying you can't have it both ways.

Actually you can. Some little things do make a significant difference and some little things don't. It depends on what little thing we're talking about and in what context.

 

[AdmiralB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

I would read it as, hey maybe I should directly compare a real P90 with a real Phat Cat to make sure this is the case before I accuse another member of making something up.

OK, I think we're into another typed/spoken word thing here.

This thread started about stock PCs and P90s, yes or no?

BTB posted that picture, saying "they're the same, see?" - implying, to ME at least, that his picture was an illustration that pertained to the topic of the thread.

After pointing out certain aspects of the picture, he stated that the picture was not, in fact, of a stock PC.

He 'accused' me of not knowing what I was talking about WRT to the Gibson specs for the P90 and humbucker (which you have confirmed) and 'accused' me of cherrypicking web info to support it. And yet when he posts a photo that turns out to be misleading, and I suggest that it is coincidental, you're slamming me for 'accusing' him of lying. Whatever.

Still, you haven't answered my question - can you take a Gibson P90 or Duncan SP90-1, cut the ends down, and put a PC cover on it?

 

[JeffB]

Re: Flat out: Does the Phat Cat sound Like a Gibson P-90?

Yep...

I'll stick with humbuckers :bigthumb:




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