Floyd Rose Special Quality

[greekdude]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

"The height of the strings above the fingerboard (or the action) is typically set at the bridge to match the curvature of the fingerboard radius more or less exactly, although players can easily adjust individual string height to personal preference. On instruments with compound-radius fingerboards, string height is typically set to match the fingerboard radius basically in the middle of the scale length; i.e., at or near the 12th fret."

I read that (logically) as saying that the bridge should have a 14" radius on a 12" - 16" radius neck???

Link is here: https://www.fender.com/articles/tech-talk/what-is-fingerboard-radius/

I think this is not correct. Imagine that you had 30 or more frets, that frets expanded all the way to the bridge pickup with a progressive radius. What rational would justify to say that the bridge radius must be smaller than the max radius? String height would be incorrect.
Another way to immagine this : think that string height on all frets all strings is like 0.5mm, so we can say that strings "touch" the fretboard/frets. By this logic the bridge radius must be such that the action remains small and constant.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

I agree with what you are saying 100%. Makes sense. Don’t have the answer as to why that is on Fender’s website.

Also makes sense what you are saying to set the height of the bottom E and top E the same and to then make sure the height of the other strings is the same at the last fret. BUT here is a question: at the nut (with a FR nut) string height is not the same for all strings??? I found a document from Gibson the other day and strings are not a uniform height at the nut. Will post it when I can get to my notebook (just busy doing a backup). Also: not sure how this would work with my Jacksons for example i.e. my top E is set closer/lower than my bottom E as per Jackson’s specs.???

 

[greekdude]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

if the nut has an angle then the height will not be unifrom. Also if the nut has a smaller radius than the frets then the middle strings will be taller on the first frets. At the nut thicker strings want more room to vibrate : about 0.25mm for high E and 0.3mm for low E are common values.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Hello.

Yip. That sounds about right.

Found those downloadable radius gauges. Also found some conflicting information as to whether or not FRs are 12” or 16” when they are NOT shimmed.

Pretty sure it must be mathematically possible to calculate the exact sizes of shims required to change from the base radius of an unshimmed FR to the required radius (but as stated above: you have to sure exactly what the unshimmed radius is to begin with). This would at least give a pretty good starting point i.e. before adjustment with a radius gauge.

Not going to lose any sleep over this though. At least not until I have a problem with my stock Jackson hardware anyway.

This sure could be a deep rabbit hole to go down i.e. doesn’t just stop at the bridge e.g. adjusting pickup pole pieces to match string radius.

But I sure have learned something again today. I am not the first person to think you can just buy a replacement FR and slap it onto a guitar and all will be great and I sure will not be the last.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

I may not be 100% correct here so if anyone has better/more info please correct me.

I’ve always understood the Floyd nut system to be something like this.

There are 3 basic widths
R2=1 5/8
R3=1 11/16
R4= 1 3/4

There are also other nut size codes from R1 through R10. I was under the impression that these other sizes had different radius.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Hello.

Yip. You're quite correct. See the below (for FR ORIGINAL nut sizes) as taken from FR's website this morning:



And "great minds think alike" i.e. before I even saw your post this morning I was out with the digital caliper!!! LOL!!!

I compared the individual strings heights as measured for each string from the base of the nut to the bottom of string slot. I did this for a FR Special Nut (BR3) (Gibson) and a stock Jackson nut (WR3) (Jackson). Here are my findings:



Make of them what you will.

The differences appear to be EXTREMELY small. Or are they???

Only surprise for me is the fact that on both nuts: the slot for the bottom E string is lower on both???

Also the "Height @ D" difference between their chart and my measurements???

Dunno. I think this type of thing could drive a person insane so I'm steering clear for now.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Sorry. Forgot to add this to the post above.

Here's some links relating to all of this. Read at your peril i.e. as I said this could drive a person (especially anybody even remotely borderline OCD) totally over the edge!!! LOL!!!

Setting the saddle radius on a Floyd Rose:
https://hazeguitars.com/blog/setting-saddle-radius-on-the-floyd-rose

Free radius gauges:
https://hazeguitars.com/radiusgauge/

A whole pile of good info. (unrelated) (really worth scrolling through all the posts):
https://hazeguitars.com/blog/

Interesting about nut height:
http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/nut.htm

 

[greekdude]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

This would at least give a pretty good starting point i.e. before adjustment with a radius gauge.

Leave this for the end of the setup. When everything else is sorted out you just shim enough with rectangular foiled plain kitchen aluminum foil in order to achieve uniform height. Math calculations are ok, but only when everything else is ideal. In our case frets are not worn uniformly, e.g. the 24th fret on low-E (or low-B) is almost never touched whereas on high E or high B are fretted now and then. So you may think of the whole guitar as a system which may evolve with you and simply adjust to any wear down where/when it happens.
PS
You told you stripped the threads of your original nut right? So you must be careful to apply only so much force as to not do any damage. For nut tightening ppl commonly use only one finger to turn the alen key. For saddles even less.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

So you must be careful to apply only so much force as to not do any damage.

Well I know that NOW!!! Where were YOU about two years ago??? LOL!!!

All very interesting I must admit though (the general topic of discussion).

Always amazes me how the slightest bit of adjustment on one side affects things on the other side e.g. adjusting the nut height or neck relief and how it then affects action and whatever else. Fascinating things these guitar things are they not!!! LOL!!!

 

[GrilledChickenSalad]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Floyd Rose Special is crap, in my opinion. Wear at friction points too quickly, from my experience, as well as tuning stability issues.

Tried a few Gotohs. One around 2000. Another a few years ago. Both were more prone to wear at the friction points that result in tuning issues. Will never buy another Gotoh.

The German Schaller-made Floyd units have always served me far better.

 

[vel0c1ty]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Floyd Rose Special is crap, in my opinion. Wear at friction points too quickly, from my experience, as well as tuning stability issues.

Tried a few Gotohs. One around 2000. Another a few years ago. Both were more prone to wear at the friction points that result in tuning issues. Will never buy another Gotoh.

The German Schaller-made Floyd units have always served me far better.

Ah. Hopefully my Gotoh doesn't turn out like that, but I'm quite enjoying it now. I did read that the knife edges are designed to be duller resulting in more friction but that also means more durability.

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk

 

[Masta' C]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Tried a few Gotohs. One around 2000. Another a few years ago. Both were more prone to wear at the friction points that result in tuning issues. Will never buy another Gotoh.

Ooooooooooooohkkkkkaaaaaayyyyyy...

Not knocking the OFR and I understand this was your "experience", but the Gotoh trem and "edge wear"/"tuning issues" is not a thing unless you're treating them badly by using the wrong posts, etc.

 

[Adieu]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Actually (quoting my own post) that makes no sense i.e. if anything the stock Jackson FR should be FLATTER across the bridge???

This from Fender's website on the topic:

"The height of the strings above the fingerboard (or the action) is typically set at the bridge to match the curvature of the fingerboard radius more or less exactly, although players can easily adjust individual string height to personal preference. On instruments with compound-radius fingerboards, string height is typically set to match the fingerboard radius basically in the middle of the scale length; i.e., at or near the 12th fret."

I read that (logically) as saying that the bridge should have a 14" radius on a 12" - 16" radius neck???

Link is here: https://www.fender.com/articles/tech-talk/what-is-fingerboard-radius/

Anyways. Suffice to say I saw something today that I wasn't aware of. Warmoth website got my vote that's for sure i.e. as I have noted it's the very first time I've EVER seen this being noted on any FR supplier's website. So thanks to dave74 for that.

Yet again another good reason for Jackson owners to research WELL before deciding to muck with them i.e. very few things, if any, are straight swaps.

Higher E and E saddles DO make a flatter radius though

 

[vel0c1ty]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Update: The FR Special that came with my Jackson has also worn down at the e and B saddles and can't hold the strings without me folding them in a certain way. Am I just over-tightening? I hope it's that rather than the quality of the saddles. Also, the play and movement are pretty damn stiff considering the fact it's floating. Sigh... can't wait to replace it with another Gotoh.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Hi.

It's unfortunately the quality of the saddles I hate to tell ya. I had this on the FR Special I put in and then took out again. I think it was the B saddle that had a problem i.e. the saddle block would be hitting the stop without crimping the string enough. Never bothered to check why. And I wasn't over tightening either (learned that lesson the hard way a long time ago) i.e. just nicking tight using the short end of the allen key as leverage (as opposed to the long end which is a "destroyer" of all things FR!!! LOL!!!). Matter of fact and in my case: I think I only changed strings once on that FR Special so it's not like this happened because of good 'ol wear and tear and age.

As for it being stiff: dunno. How many springs do you have??? I've got four installed parallel on each of my guitars. Cannot say anything is (was) stiff???

I don't know anything about Gotoh trem. systems. But if it were me I'd buy the GENUINE ORIGINAL FR (from Germany) and have done with it. Jacksons, I've come to realise, are really "finnicky" when it comes to changes. As I've noted before: NOTHING I've done to my Jacksons has been an improvement from the stock Jackson hardware (other than, of course, my Invader pickup). But stock Jackson hardware appears to be impossible to source so better to go with the overall original design i.e. FR ORIGINAL (but as we've found out on this thread you're gonna have to shim the saddles to get the correct radius).

 

[Ayrton]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

The string lock blocks in the lower line bridges is the problem with string slippage. Pull one out and check it, but I bet you will find deep impressions. You can replace them with steel or titanium.

The Gotoh bridge is an excellent unit and will take decades to wear the fulcrum points.

Do not over think the OFR radius. There are millions of them in use on all different radius fretboards. You do not have to shim the saddles to get good action.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Do not over think the OFR radius. There are millions of them in use on all different radius fretboards. You do not have to shim the saddles to get good action.

Depends on the severity of your OCD condition!!! LOL!!!

I will admit that when I fitted that FR Special I had no idea that the radius wasn't "correct" for a Jackson neck and I really didn't have any issue to be honest. Problem is that now I "know"!!! LOL!!!

 

[greekdude]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Do not over think the OFR radius. There are millions of them in use on all different radius fretboards. You do not have to shim the saddles to get good action.

yep, no need to get paranoid to the fraction of 0.01mm, but to be precise on the 0.1mm scale IMHO is a good compromise
So when my tech overhauled my Carvin, refretted and set radius to 14, the action on the bridge (OFR, IIRC 12") was so non-uniform that I had to do the shim thing.

 

[Adieu]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

yep, no need to get paranoid to the fraction of 0.01mm, but to be precise on the 0.1mm scale IMHO is a good compromise
So when my tech overhauled my Carvin, refretted and set radius to 14, the action on the bridge (OFR, IIRC 12") was so non-uniform that I had to do the shim thing.

You COULD tilt it ever so slightly you know... you need higher action on the wound side anyway if you're going for super low

Actually probably what happened to your Carvin, not radius but wrong tilt

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Floyd Rose Special Quality

Well, OK, I’m being flippant about the whole thing (and I actually need to stop doing this).

There’s a right way and a wrong way to do things let’s be honest. So on a Jackson ANY FR should be radiused to 16” thus ensuring a uniform string curve that matches the curve at the top of neck. Once this has been achieved then set your action to your preference. In my case: I’m good With Jackson’s factory defaults as measured at the 17th fret. Once this is done then of course pickup height. For stock Jackson pickups the factory defaults of 1.6mm both sides works just great for me. My Invader though is set using the “two nickel method” which is 1.95mm both sides.

Now: exactly how much of a difference there is in individual string heights between a 16” radius neck and a 16” radius FR and a 12” radius FR I know not but as I said earlier on the thread there must be some type of calculation for this. This is in theory of course. How much of a difference it makes in practice may be debatable. Nevertheless: if you’re gonna do it then you may as well do it proper and have done with it.