For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

[Zerberus]

Many of you may have the impression that I hate Warmoth, this is far from the truth.... But many of you often state "its cheaper", without seemingly putting any real though into what is to be "copied"... So I think it´s time for a comparison....

We will now build a copy of a USA Dinky in a solid color from Warmoth. Jacksons and Charvels seem to be what grabs your attention thh most (or maybe just mine) but either way ..... We will make a fair comparison and I will show you where you make compromises, this will of course be open to discussion

Here we go:

Neck, $ 339 - No headstock binding, no finish, no MOP logo (or logo at all, for that matter), plastic inlays, NOT prepped for a locking nut or drilled for a body: http://www.warmoth.com/showcase/sc_...mn418&menuItem=8&subMenuItem=6&subMenuItem2=0
+45 $ locknut prep and hole drilling

+Body, Factory second, $399 (using the unrouted one for 449 would be a more fitting comparison because of the neck, but I´ll give you guys this, I´m trying to make a point here, and a Trans color would actually make that easier.....)- Access to the top 2 frets is not as good as the Jackson because of the extended fretboard:
http://www.warmoth.com/showcase/sc_...slp26&menuItem=8&subMenuItem=0&subMenuItem2=0

NOTE that this body is a Factory second. A factory second Jackson does not exist, it´s either a warranty issue and will be remedied/ replaced or there´s nothing wrong. The same body in a proper condition would cost about 100$ more...without the Floyd studs installed or the heel contoured

+Pups, $148.50 : Instead of EMGs, we´ll use the 2 (Cheaper) Duncans: http://www.warmoth.com/pickups/pickups.cfm?fuseaction=pickups_g_seymour

+Original Floyd, Black, 180$ - http://www.warmoth.com/hardware/bridges/bridges.cfm?fuseaction=bridges_floyd_original

+Tuners, Gotoh SG 38, Black... http://www.warmoth.com/hardware/tuners/tuners.cfm?fuseaction=guitar_tuners

And another 50 dollars for parts (Pots, Jack+ plate, swithces, shielding tape, screws, etc..)

Makes a total of 1148.50 ...seems like a huge savings? Watch me....

*cont*

 

[Zerberus]

Re: For the "Warmoth guys".....

Re: For the "Warmoth guys".....

*cont
The tuner holes still have to be reamed, the guitar has to be assembled and set up, the frets will need to be dressed to perfection if you want perfect playability..... at a cheap going rate of 20$ an hour it´s about 5 hours of work, so thats another 100 dollars. I doubt that any pro luthier will do it for this price, I take double that and most that I know take more. But I think anyones time should be worth 20$ an hour to them, anyone that does any kind of work for free I feel sorry for

*Edit* when writing, I forgot that the neck will need to be finished to avoid voiding the warranty... another 50 bucks there... amounts from here on are corrected *edit*
We are now at 1298.50 for a hobbyist, more realistically 1398.50-1450

OOOPS, I totally forgot, we still need a CASE!! We all know what SKB and G&G cases cost, so we´re at a minimum of 1375 for cheap luthier and SKB, 1550 for realistic luthier and G&G.

Our Pros: 1. We saved some cash (we still think)
2. Hmmm, other than saving cash, I can´t think of one, becasue If I know what I doing I didn´t learn anything, and if I took it to a luthier I didn´t learn much either (yet)
Our Cons:
1. Resale value is ****, even as parts, but we knew that going in
2. Quality is at best on par, IMO the Jackson is measurably better. Warmoth is good, but Jackson USA is the workmanship others are measured by.
3. I have a one year warranty on the parts as opposed to a lifetime warranty on the whole guitar
4. Playability of a USA Jackson IMO is something a stock Warmoth cannot match...especially in this case on the upper 2 frets (because of Warmoth´s extended Fretboard instead of the longer neck Jackson and others use), the rest may be better or worse depending how you like the neck.
5. Speaking of which, we have an Oiled neck on the DK1, so we either compromised on the neck and went for satin, or voided our warranty completely....
6. all of the expensive cosmetics are gone, no Mother of Pearl, no headstock binding, No Logo....

And guess what, the DK-1 has a Minimum ADVERTISED Price of 1694.99, actual sale price is notably lower http://www.mattsmusic.com/jacksoninventory.htm


Comes down to 200 dollars savings, at worst 50-100 bucks MORE... Still think warmoth is that much cheaper? Remember, I can use a proper body (not a second) and a trans finish, and take a standard EMG price and add a battery box, then suddeny that advantage barely covers a pack of strings.

*Edit 2* MY Bad, Black Cherry is a pearl finish and costs more mthan a standard color... But that just makes my point even more clear *Edit*

This is NOT to rag on Warmoth in any way, Gregg and his company make a great product, and I ´m glad to have them here.... I merely wish to put some of you guys that say "Warmoth!" to everything over 1k USD back in the real world, where American Labor costs money just like hardware does

And Yes, I know that many of the old Charvel Bodies were made by Warmoth, or more accurately Boogie Bodies /Lynn Ellsworth

 

[Pierre]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Satisfaction of having your own 'custom' guitar = priceless.
I don't mean this in a bad way against you, but I think that's what warmoth is for. Before all, it's to make what YOU want. Comparing production guitars with Warmoth is a little weird. It's like comparing a stock Ford Mustang to a on comand hand built race monster...

For instance, I really wish I could afford a Charvel San Dimas. But even used they are WAYYYYYYY too expensive. What do I do? I go to warmoth, make the simplest maple boarded, strat head, with one humbucker and a vintage trem, and I do pay 2,000 dollars less than for a custom made one. With both solutions you get what YOU want. The build quality is what determines what's best as you say.

 

[FretFire]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Comparing production guitars with Warmoth is a little weird. It's like comparing a stock Ford Mustang to a on comand hand built race monster...

Well, that's exactly why he made this post, because people have been comparing the two. And in this case it's more like comparing a stock Mustang and a Mustang you assembled from parts .

 

[Zerberus]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Satisfaction of having your own 'custom' guitar = priceless.
I don't mean this in a bad way against you, but I think that's what warmoth is for. Before all, it's to make what YOU want. Comparing production guitars with Warmoth is a little weird. It's like comparing a stock Ford Mustang to a on comand hand built race monster...

Which is, turned around, also exactly the point I´m tring to make to the people that are such proponents of Warmoth... Just because you can build it cheaper doesn´t mean it´s in any way better or of equal quality. It may even be "worse" for the same cash

Although in this case it´s more like comparing a stock Mustang to one you assembled from parts

*EDIT* ROFL Fretfire (dunno why I thought you were Fatty, sorry bro), that sentence seems real familiar :beerchug:

 

[FretFire]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Great minds think alike? :smack:

:laugh2:

 

[Pierre]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Ok... I think I'm a little lost in what you're saying. We both agree that comparing warmoth to stock is wrong. But what warmoth does well is custom guitar with good quality for way cheaper than any other custom shop. Of course you can only get a bolt on but well it's the price to pay for the huge amount of money you save by not going 100% custom (hand built and all the tralala)
For someone like me for instance, would I even notice the difference in quality between a USA Jackson/custom shop and a warmoth? Between an American Fender and a warmoth Tele or Strat clone? I don't know what kind of client base they have but from what I see on their website and their reputation, they do provide things well worth their money. It's just a different market than the 100% custom one.

Edit: ok I think we're both saying the same thing but from different point of views. In short, I agree with you 100%. But I think your example would make more sense if you compared a custom shop quote with the warmoth one. I think I'll go ahead and work on that muaahah :saeek:

 

[Davey]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Great minds think alike? :smack:

:laugh2:

looks more like copy-paste :scratchch

if he'd be comparing a stock mustang to a on comand hand built race monster, he'd be comparing it to the custom shop

 

[FretFire]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

looks more like copy-paste :scratchch

It's not verbatim, so scratch that.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

....Of course you can only get a bolt on but well it's the price to pay for the huge amount of money you save by not going 100% custom (hand built and all the tralala)

Exactly, and there´s a trade-off in the quality, which many here like to forget ... Reason 1 for this thread.

For someone like me for instance, would I even notice the difference in quality between a USA Jackson/custom shop and a warmoth?

Being proud owner of multiple USA Jacksons and having built more Warmoths than many may think (easily 50-60): Instantly.

Between an American Fender and a warmoth Tele or Strat clone?

Also instantly, with Warmoth coming out on top this time...but the difference is larger than between the USA Jackson and the warmoth, "Good" is already IMO the top 75-80%

I don't know what kind of client base they have but from what I see on their website and their reputation, they do provide things well worth their money. It's just a different market than the 100% custom one.

Exactly... and many here jsut see anything that looks like a strat in any way and immediately say "I can build it cheaper from Warmoth"...My point is: No you can´t, you can build a guitar that looks the same, possibly not even at second glance anymore

You can build a great guitar from Warmoth, and you can copy a lot of things should you so desire... But assuming that a parts guitar is on par with a handmade (just cheaper), regardless of brand, is a big mistake.. If that were so, then I guess my dad was right and the Luthier has truly gone the way of the Buggy-Whip Maker and become obsolete...

.....Edit: ok I think we're both saying the same thing but from different point of views. In short, I agree with you 100%. But I think your example would make more sense if you compared a custom shop quote with the warmoth one. I think I'll go ahead and work on that muaahah :saeek:

Actually it wouldn´t, because a Custom is a custom, and not a n attempt to copy something else cheaper.. Also, nobody here seems toi question the cost of custom pieces, only of production instruments (although teh Charvel 25the thread is a good example of the contrary)

This is the reason I chose the DK-1. It´s the cheapest USA Made bolt-on after the Charvel San Dimas (which is afaik the cheapest of any manufacturer), and has Specs that can be matched or at least closeld copped with Warmoth parts. And the quality is the exact same as the USA Custom shop minus the 12-month wait and cool leather binder. Perfect candidate

 

[Davey]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Ok... I think I'm a little lost in what you're saying. We both agree that comparing warmoth to stock is wrong. But what warmoth does well is custom guitar with good quality for way cheaper than any other custom shop. Of course you can only get a bolt on but well it's the price to pay for the huge amount of money you save by not going 100% custom (hand built and all the tralala)

warmoth only supplies the parts. you (or a luthier) do the rest. and no, i do not think you can compare THAT, to the 1st custom shop in existence. charvel started it all

For someone like me for instance, would I even notice the difference in quality between a USA Jackson/custom shop and a warmoth? Between an American Fender and a warmoth Tele or Strat clone? I don't know what kind of client base they have but from what I see on their website and their reputation, they do provide things well worth their money. It's just a different market than the 100% custom one.

yes, you would notice the diference. better fret work, dressed, leveled, not to mention better fret access. yep. warmoth does an awesome job, but there's only so much that they can do. IF you'd go the warmoth route to an american fender, you'd only get as good an axe you yourself would make. and unless you got the proper experience to do it yourself, i dont think it'd be a good one.

Edit: ok I think we're both saying the same thing but from different point of views. In short, I agree with you 100%. But I think your example would make more sense if you compared a custom shop quote with the warmoth one. I think I'll go ahead and work on that muaahah :saeek:

a custom shop axe without any special things will get you about 3k shorter for a bolt on.. and that axe is perfect. if it's not, you get another one, no questions asked. apart of that, you dont have any other hassle with incompetent luthiers who think they know their work, or big extra $$$ for a good luthier who will do the right job

 

[DeadSkinSlayer3]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

The only reason I'd ever go Warmoth is to get an LP with a floyd and longer scale, without paying 6K for the Neal Schon one.

Although, an Epiphone version is rumored to be in the making as we speak, so Warmoth probably won't see my money any time soon.

 

[FretFire]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

The only reason I'd ever go Warmoth is to get an LP with a floyd and longer scale, without paying 6K for the Neal Schon one.

It'd be a bolt on .

 

[pac112]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

It'd be a bolt on .

bolt on LP ?? :blackeye:

 

[Davey]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

LP + Floyd should be outlawed =/

it's just.. wrong somehow

 

[FretFire]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

bolt on LP ?? :blackeye:

You can only get bolts from Warmoth...

 

[Willis]

Re: For the "Warmoth guys".....

Re: For the "Warmoth guys".....

And Yes, I know that many of the old Charvel Bodies were made by Warmoth, or more accurately Boogie Bodies /Lynn Ellsworth

Do you know how they are today? I was thinking of getting a Boogie Bodies neck for my custom made Charvel clone (and it's not from Warmoth, so you should be happy).

 

[Pierre]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Ok, let's take a Charvel USA custom shop model (bolt on, so easier to er... 'compare')
Alder body, 22 frets, maple fretboard, Black delrin inlays, one humbucker and original Floyd Rose. We'll chose a solid color. Nothing too fancy, just a small GAS machine that'll turn head (well it worked for EVH)
Base price is 2,499.99
Floyd rose is 120
Total is 2,619.99
And that's all there is. (Let's not order a case with it, as warmoth doesn't do cases I think, but anyhoo just in case, that'd be an extra 159.99)

Warmoth:

Body, rear routed: 165 + 10 for angled neck pocket (for non recessed OFR) = 175

Neck, maple, maple fretboard, MOP dot inlays, strat head, thin profile: 157 + 25 for locking nut + 20 for stainless frets + 35 for straight fretboard radius (10'' for an OFR I believe?) = 237

Solid color = 165

Pickups + control: SD custom 5 $74.25 + 500k CTS volume pot $3 + 5.95 for wiring +SJ1 switchcraft stereo jack $3 = 86.2

Parts, hardware, screws = Floyd Rose (chrome) $170 + gotoh tuner, left, chrome $25 + 3.50 for pickup ring + $2.75 knob + 4.50 neck plate + 1.60 neck screws + schaller strap lock $12 = 219.35

Total = 882.55

Personally, for a difference of 1,737.44 dollars, I doubt I would notice the difference in quality. I'd be ready to pay a luthier for a fretjob, but for a 1 hum guitar I'd do the wiring myself (we all have to start one day).
The way people like me think (i.e GAS attacked people with little money, no job and the urge to buy everything) is: either I pay the oldest, most reputable, most badass custom shop in the world for my dream guitar, and I get the best guarantee there is, either I go to warmoth and I save 1,800 bucks. The quality WILL be there, it just wouldn't be hand made, the woods probably would be of a slightly lesser quality. Would it be something I'd notice while playing? Would it be something most people would notice? For such a price difference, I say warmoth is winner.

ok keep in mind this is with MY set of mind, and I don't doubt many people will think like me.
I understand better what you meant, I didn't quite get the guitar copying part...
Isn't the point of production guitars to minimize cost? Having the same one custom made makes no economical sense whatsoever indeed.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: For the "Warmoth guys".....

Re: For the "Warmoth guys".....

Do you know how they are today? I was thinking of getting a Boogie Bodies neck for my custom made Charvel (and it's not from Warmoth, so you should be happy).

1. You obvously didn´t read my post or misunderstood at least half of it.. I like Warmoth very much, and recommend their products to many :laugh2:

Lynn is making necks again AFAIK, bodies is new to me....I find the prices a bit high, though, considering she hasn´t been making necks for years.....But I´ll wait for final judgement until I´ve actually played one (as usual)

 

[Willis]

Re: For the "Warmoth guys".....

Re: For the "Warmoth guys".....

1. You obvously didn´t read my post or misunderstood at least half of it.. I like Warmoth very much, and recommend their products to many :laugh2:

I know, I just meant I'm not really comparing it (or anything made from somewhere else) to an original San Dimas or Custom Shop guitar. To me they're an entirely different guitar, even if I were trying to clone something (which I'm not).

Lynn is making necks again AFAIK, bodies is new to me....I find the prices a bit high, though, considering she hasn´t been making necks for years.....But I´ll wait for final judgement until I´ve actually played one (as usual)

http://www.soundinstruments.com/ This place says they're the only supplier of Boogie Bodies. Their prices are similar to Warmoth.