For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

[JacksonMIA]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

TheArchitect, I think you're missing his point. He's not trying to say that Jacksons are perfect (though, compared to most other mass produced guitars, they get close and their custom shops as far as I can tell are even closer) but to show that you're not getting a better deal by going with Warmoth. He never even said that Jacksons were better than a local "small operation" luthier could make. He even said that Warmoth is a good choice for certain applications. His point is that to build a guitar comperable in playability and sound to a Jackson, the average person would have to take those Warmoth parts to a luthier that will (all "he's a friend of mine that will do it cheap" deals aside) charge so much for the work that it will be cheaper to just buy one that's already had the work done. Not that the work couldn't be done as well as the Jackson, just that you'll have to pay more for it. I'm sure he's not upset that you have a dissenting opinion. But it's easy for people to get upset when you call them out for something that they really aren't trying to say.

"Sorry, but my impression is just Zerb + Jackson = Something to shoot at"

I haven't seen anyone say this let alone me. You are allowed to infer meaning from others words but when people do the same to you you have a hissy fit? You need to check yourself.

Sorry Zerb, he has a point.

Both of you are guilty of this, but why get defensive about it? It doesn't accomplish anything but making someone mad.

 

[Pierre]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

I used to think that Zerb was just heavily biased towards Jackson. Now I think that not only he is, but that he has the info and most importantly the experience to back it up. He's surely increased my GAS for a soloist! :laugh2: Unlike me he has the experience to tell stuff and I respect that.
I think the main focus of the argument here should be warmoth itself and not whichever custom shop you compare it to. As it's been (wisely) said, warmoth is indeed a parts manufacturer and I tend to forget about it, for the simple reason that you can also make up your whole guitar, and I have no need for parts :smack:
I made my dream Tele using warmoth parts only and it's less than 900 dollars... With the current exchange rate that's 440 pounds...That's the price of a highway 1 Tele. Add customs and VAT, we could say 550 pounds, the price of a standard American Tele. And the warmoth one is totally custom made. Sure I'd have to assemble it and set it up... But that's well gained experience for later.
We still are talking about A LOT of money for everyone. I don't have any income. This is just a dream. But isn't it nice to have an accessible dream? My dream custom shop Jackson would be 4,000 dollars, even an SL1 would be close to 2,000, and I haven't even seen one in shops around here. They do provide something different. But if you want it can still be a custom guitar.
Zerb I think that earlier you thought I was going against you. I wasn't. I was just viewing your argument with another point of view. And I believe most people don't have the luthier point of view, though of course it is arguable considering warmoth indeed makes parts (keyword). I wish I had the luthier point of view to be honest. I want to understand what a good fretwork is, I want to understand what makes a neck good and a neck bad... but all I have now is feel and my faithful Charvel model 4 which I strongly believe is the absolute best guitar in the world fftopic: (not that I tried them all, but I have to convince myself somehow )

 

[Colma]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

(all "he's a friend of mine that will do it cheap" deals aside)

meh aside from that it would've cost like a little under 300 to get it painted from warmoth which STILL would put me well under what it have if i went the jackson route..

IMO i think there are just WAY too many people with WAY too many different needs / wants / tastes etc... to bring up an argument about which company is better is pretty much just a whole lot of talking / making points / cleaver arguing..for pretty much nothing.

take zerb's guitar he was using to make his point... thats great for people looking to build that kind of guitar.. so..

jackson - 1
warmoth - 0

Then look at people like me...who want certain things certain ways, and if a company cant provide that for the price ( AND time..because time is also money ) then TO ME, they cant compete...so...

Jackson - 1
Warmoth - 1

so here we are each company with a point which is pretty much a TIE which is EXACTLY where we were before this whole thing started.

 

[TattooedCarrot]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

many of you often state "its cheaper", without seemingly putting any real though into what is to be "copied"...

I didn't read all the posts, but as someone who has built a few Warmoths, let me just say this.

Warmoth is mostly Fender licensed stuff, with fender spec neck pockets and such. And most people make some sort of Fenderish style guitar from their parts.

With that in mind, I would say if you're building a copy of a stock guitar, you likely won't be saving any money and I would just buy the Fender. Where Warmoth is strong, is the ability to spec out your guitar with woods, colors, necks, profiles, tuners, hardware, and just about anything you want without going through a custom shop. So in that context, it is much cheaper than ordering a custom shop guitar just to get the specs you want.

Stock style copy = buy the real thing

Customized specs = Warmoth

I wouldn't build just a regular strat from Warmoth, I'd buy the Fender. But if I wanted a chambered mahogany strat with a quilted top, routed for humbuckers with a hardtail and humbuckers, I'd go Warmoth as a Fender custom shop version of that would be several thousand compared to about $1200 through Warmoth.

 

[stevie_bees]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

I can't afford a Jackson, or a Warmoth made guitar. Where does that leave me!!!!

 

[stevie_bees]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Apart from skint!

 

[Kommerzbassist]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Ok now I've got a question.
Are we talking about buying a Stock Guitar compared to buying a warmoth and finishing & stuff it yourself?
I mean willl a Fender Deluxe Strat Body be better than a one piece Warmoth body that's finished and stuff?

 

[RGN]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

For the most part I tend to agree with Zerb on this issue. I do think building a Warmoth tends not to be a great bargain. I built one in '91 with a custom graphic and I think it was every bit as expensive as a USA Jackson or ESP.

I do think the title of the post appears to "call out" people that really like Warmoth stuff. Maybe "Warmoth / Jackson cost comparison" with the exact same information inside would have went down easier for some people. However, I doubt very seriously Zerb intended to offend or annoy anyone with this very informative post.

Which of these are less/more offensive if you drive a VW?

Title: Problems with my 2004 Jetta GLI

"My 2004 Jetta is a piece of crap!! It has been in the shop for 2 weeks straight... etc..."


Title: Hardcore VW Fans read this.....

"My 2004 Jetta is a piece of crap!! It has been in the shop for 2 weeks straight... etc..."

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

What specs are they?

Mahogany body / Maple top
Hardtail string through bridge
Maple neck / Rosewood board - Compound radius w/ standard thin profile
Sperzel Locking tuners
Graphtec nut cut for 10-46 set.
HSH electronics / 5 way sw / Vol control - 250k pot
6105 fret wire
Blues S. model - Bridge
Classic Stack - Middle
59 - Neck

 

[Zerberus]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

I would like to apologize to The Architect.... Long story short: Zerb, you dumbass, don´t post when you´re drunk

I´m human, and I make mistakes, especially when inebriated.... I hope you can accept that... Had I used any other shop as an example, this probably wouldn´t have happened :beerchug:

Now, back to topic...(NOTE TO ALL: please replace Jackson with Grosh, Mirabella, Suhr , Anderson or similar if you have a problem with me using Jackson in this example. I am NOT here to defend Jackson or state how badass they are, but I merely happen to know some Jackson processes from the inside and not just what´s on the website, making it easier for me to use in the example... I was pretty sure that would have been easier to understand, at the very latest here https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showpost.php?p=475220&postcount=45 ..... Next time I´ll just use a totally fictitious company so that people can disregard even more of what I say... This didn´t turn into a Jackson-defense session until people started missing the topic)

“The tuner holes still have to be reamed, the guitar has to be assembled and set up, the frets will need to be dressed to perfection if you want perfect playability....."

If the Warmoth needs to be perfect you are implying the Jackson is.

No, I´m simply pointing out that the Jackson, or a Squier, or a pissyass johnson, or any other finished guitar is exactly that: Finished.... The Warmoth on the other hand still needs all assembly steps and a full setup.

“Playability of a USA Jackson IMO is something a stock Warmoth cannot match...”

Warmoth makes parts not guitars. To say they cannot match a Jackson most definitely implies that the builders are not up to the skill level of the Jackson builders.

No, it merely implies that handcrafted musical instrument can easily best a guitar made of more or less randomly chosen parts, a statement that I´ll stand by to my grave, because again: Why else do we still have luthiers and custom shops?

“Just because you can build it cheaper doesn’t mean it’s in any way better or of equal quality. It may even be "worse" for the same cash”

I actually agree with this statement and it is open to interpretation but again, to me you certainly seem to be implying that the Jackson build is superior to what another builder could accomplish.

See above statement.

“You can build a great guitar from Warmoth, and you can copy a lot of things should you so desire... But assuming that a parts guitar is on par with a handmade (just cheaper), regardless of brand, is a big mistake..”

This is certainly open to interpretation but your tone certainly implied to me that you feel Jackson superior on all counts.

I clearly state nothing about Jackson but about handmade axes in general... But I assume that that axe is now buried...And yes, I still feel that handmade, masterbuilt instruments are superior to parts guitars.....I`ve yet to see a parts guitar that actually impresses me, most custom shops at least open my eye on a regular basis

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Wow, lots to read here!
Zerb, first off -- I really appreciate the price comparison you did. That's a ton of research & work, bro!

Having built my own 'parts guitar', I can confirm one thing -- there is no cheap way to put together a great parts guitar without dropping a couple of grand. The neck alone for my guitar was more than most people pay for their entire guitars.

You are also right about the after-purchase work required. Time is money, as the saying goes. Even tho my neck was made 100% custom for me, I still had to ream out the lacquer for my tuners to fit! Just finding the ideal place for the string retaining bar took a few hours (I kid you not).

Finally, the resale value issue is also a big one.

In the broad strokes, I agree with you 100% (tho my personal prefs go towards different guitars than J/C, as you and I have discussed as nauseum).

Lesson: Before deciding on a parts guitar, count the cost. Pound wise and penny foolish, as the saying goes. I wonder how many Warmoth parts are sitting around because the buyer didn't have the time/energy/tools/skill to complete his project! I'm guessing MANY.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

That from the mouth of a four year old, I´m impressed :laugh2::beerchug::laugh2:

 

[aleclee]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

“Playability of a USA Jackson IMO is something a stock Warmoth cannot match...”

Warmoth makes parts not guitars. To say they cannot match a Jackson most definitely implies that the builders are not up to the skill level of the Jackson builders.

I didn't read it that way at all. Warmoth sells necks with the disclaimer that they should have a fret level and recrown when they're installed on a guitar. Thus, if your definition of "stock Warmoth" is where the parts are assembled out of the box, the issue is probably less cloudy. I'd hope that a USA Jackson would play better than a guitar in need of a fret level & crown.

At least that's how things look from where I'm sitting...

 

[Zerberus]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

I didn't read it that way at all. Warmoth sells necks with the disclaimer that they should have a fret level and recrown when they're installed on a guitar. Thus, if your definition of "stock Warmoth" is where the parts are assembled out of the box, the issue is probably less cloudy. I'd hope that a USA Jackson would play better than a guitar in need of a fret level & crown.

At least that's how things look from where I'm sitting...

And this is how they were intended, as well

 

[twoheadedboy]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Yeah, I think the point of Warmoth is to get something that you couldn't get from Jackson USA or another mass produced builder, not to build cheaper copies of production guitars. I would expect to pay more for a Warmoth if i had to buy every individual part at retail price than I would if I bought the guitar right from Jackson. Interesting that somebody finally priced this out though.

 

[casblah]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

Ok now I've got a question.
Are we talking about buying a Stock Guitar compared to buying a warmoth and finishing & stuff it yourself?
I mean willl a Fender Deluxe Strat Body be better than a one piece Warmoth body that's finished and stuff?

IMO, yes and no. Fender is producing thousands of bodies and necks, and I'm pretty convinced they'll use whatever stock is on-hand to get the job done. So You may end up with a three-piece body which is finished opaque, and you'd likely not know any different. Whereas Warmoth could sell you an unfinished body/neck, and you'd know what you got b-4 finishing. That's not to say that Warmoth doesn't take the same approach when they sell you a pre-finished body which is finished in a solid color, though.

 

[rspst14]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

I should point out that buying from the showcase doesn't necessarily mean you're getting a factory second. Originally, the showcase was referred to as the Warmoth thrift shop, and it consisted mostly of bodies that were correctly built and structurally sound, but with some sort of catch. Either the wood was ugly, or it had a unique paint job that made it tough to sell, or it had a unique feature that most people might not want, etc. They weren't "seconds" so to speak, just stuff that might not sell very easily, and so Warmoth offered it at a cheaper price in the hopes that they could sell it. These days, even though they are still known as a custom parts maker, they are moving more toward a traditional "off the shelf" approach. They build a lot of parts specifically for the showcase. If you just need a basic Strat body, or if you don't want to wait 2 months for your order, then it makes sense to order it pre-built. They will always be a custom shop, but I like having the opportunity to buy pre-built too. The showcase body I got from Warmoth is top notch in every way, I would put it up against anything made by Fender.

In terms of the assembly, the final product is largely what you make of it. If you have no experience with basic luthier tasks, then you really need to have a good luthier do the build/setup. My only complaint with Warmoth is that the fretwork is sometimes hit or miss. I've owned two Warmoth necks, one of which needed a complete level/crown/polish, as well as significant dressing to the fret ends to prevent them from tearing up my fingers. The other one was perfect right out of the box, no fretwork necessary. To be fair, Warmoth does state that their necks may need a level to play their best. But with the amount of business they do, I'd love to see them invest in a plek machine so that they could send out perfect necks everytime. Even if they made it an optional feature that costs extra, it would be well worth it to get a neck that had perfect frets.

Ryan

 

[Zerberus]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

I should point out that buying from the showcase doesn't necessarily mean you're getting a factory second....

Just to clarify: This is true, and that was never meant to be implied. But I specifically chose the second to make the cost difference as large as possible, as that made my point that much easier to prove

 

[stevie ray]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

im sure there are some guitars that are cheaper to make than one from the factory...

maybe strats?

 

[aleclee]

Re: For the "Hardcore Warmoth Fans".....

im sure there are some guitars that are cheaper to make than one from the factory...

maybe strats?

:smack:
If a Jackson can't be beaten too much price-wise, why would a Strat? Other than trading a vintage trem for the Floyd, where are you gonna save money?