For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

[big kurka]

I don't know whats really out there. I want a tube preamp rack unit that can cover allot of territory ranging from fender cleans to dual rectifier distortions but I'm pretty sure thats not really with a single tube preamp. I know the axe fx and other digital units can but I really want a tube preamp rack unit. I've been checking out the engl e530 but it seem like one trick pony (modern metal) The e570 appears better but still more of a modern metal tone thing going on from what I can find in videos. From what I've been able to find it seems like the marshall jmp-1 is more what will suits my needs along with some pedals. The problem there is you can only buy used and that can risky and scary when your talking about $500. What do you guys think and recommend? I know things can and will get pricey but I'm a very patient person.

The type of music I like to play ranges from beatles, david bowie, metalica, to chevelle. Basically all over the place'

My thoughts on what I want is a tube preamp, tc electronics g-system for effects and controls running stereo, tuner and possibly a rocktron hush system. I already have a power amp and cabs

Really looking for advice on whats out there, whats good and bad and your recommendations.

Thanks in advance Big Kurka

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

Most of the tube preamps you're going to find are used, as "everyone's" going all digital, then you have the arguments of "how much true tone are you getting with a single 12AX7 preamp?" etc etc.

That said, the ADA MP-1 still gets rave reviews, along with the Marshall JMP-1.

At any rate, it's got a Marshall logo, so it's going to command a higher price. ADA units can still be had fairly cheaply though, by comparison. There's also a modding community for it (or there was) with lots of ready-to-buy and DIY mods that change the tone and functionality. However, at least one of those mods eliminates the Clean channel, but also gives you taint-kicking chugga.

The stock MP-1 is not a bad unit. I've used one for nearly 20 years, and can't figure out why anyone had ever said they couldn't get enough gain out of one. Maybe mine's broke?

Another option might be the Soldano SLO-100, or Digitech GSP2101 or Digitech TwinTube. Internet rumors state that the chief MP-1 designer moved to Digitech when ADA dried up backinnaday, and their units were improvements on the MP-1 design.

Be aware that the versatility of rack systems come at the price of convenience and ease of use. Even with a tube preamp and a separate FX unit, you're immediately faced with 128 user presets in the preamp and just as many in the FX unit, not to mention the choices of effect chains (Graphic/Parametric EQ, Chorus/Flange/Phaser, Delay/Reverb, and the variations of those), so you could have 256 patches to choose from and an additional 15+ different algorithms for a given patch, on top of the 256 (128 User + 128 Presets) of the preamp, and each one can be tweaked infinitely.

It's not something most age-old knob-tweaking guitar->amp guys can stomach, unless they've got experience programming a VCR.

And then you get into cables for both units, which is another issue altogether.

All-in-one preamp+FX units are handy in eliminating cables, but still present the same issues with programming. Only difference there is it's all in one unit, and there's always been some debate that a stand-alone preamp-only and FX-only pair sounds better than the all-in-ones. Solo preamps do allow you to explore a wider variety of FX units, though, as well as in-between EQ units and pitch-shifters.

For the ultimate torture, you could build a rack of doom where each piece was a separate unit - Compressor, Preamp, EQ, Chorus, Flanger, Delay, Reverb, and a rackmounted Crybaby unit. Of course you'd then need a foot controller (strongly advise the ART X-15 Ultrafoot for that).

And then there's power for everything, which means at least one rack-space is going for a Furman or other power strip.

Then there's a poweramp, which could take up to 5 rack spaces by itself, if you want one chock full of tubes.

Then there's the rack itself. 2-spaces will barely cut it for a preamp+FX unit, and you do not want to know what a 12-space rack full of gear weighs.


And now you know, and knowing is half the battle

 

[DankStar]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

One of my friends that plays power/symphonic metal likes his voodoo valve, that's got a tube.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

I need to find a list of older 80s/90s rack units and see what's affordable these days. Always wanted to check out a lot of the better-than-Digitech stuff back when I had no money :lol:

 

[Mincer]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

If you ditch the idea that it has to be tube, you have more options like the Tech21 PSA-1 or the newer line 6 HD pro, both of which sound better than an ADA and a JMP. Also, if you are eventually gonna get a midi controller, stay away from the ART. It is old, it is limited to what it can control and the midi messages it can send.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

If you could find a deal on a Mesa Tri-Axis....

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

If you ditch the idea that it has to be tube, you have more options like the Tech21 PSA-1 or the newer line 6 HD pro, both of which sound better than an ADA and a JMP. Also, if you are eventually gonna get a midi controller, stay away from the ART. It is old, it is limited to what it can control and the midi messages it can send.

The X-15 is old but still viable, and built like a tank. The buttons and pedals can be assigned to any known MIDI message, and works with anything that has a MIDI interface. As well, the dual treadles eliminate the need for external expression pedals, though those can always be added to an existing setup if desired. It's big, it's ugly, but it gets the job done right. I use it to control my GSP1101, and can assign the treadles on a patch-by-patch basis to control any 2 parameters, which is one more than the built-for controller does. It's also big enough that you have less worry about fat-footing 2 buttons at once on a dark stage, and the lack of a full-text readout means you're not blinded by a glaring smart phone at your feet.

Having not heard a PSA or the Line6 HD in person, I can't speak for or against them, but I will go back to the point that the MP-1/JMP both have the same "issue": only one tube. This is of course ignoring the 3-tube mod for the MP-1, but having not heard that in person either, I can't speak for or against it. If you're used to a tube amp that has more than one tube in the preamp stage, you might find these units somewhat thin sounding.

Another issue with the MP-1 is that your best cleans will come from the SS voicing, unless you like a thin tubey crackle in your cleans. I don't. If it was a throaty crackle that had some punch, yeah, but it sounds more like clipping than being pushed.

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

I always wanted to do this :



PRE AMP : http://www.englamps.de/index.php?id=38&tx_ddfproducts_pi1[uid]=38&iPhoneBypass=1 : E530 unit (...link is dodgy)

POWER AMP : http://www.mesaboogie.com/amplifier...power-amps/stereo-2fifty-power-amp/index.html

GRAPHIC EQ : http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/231S

BOOST / OD : http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/R2DU/OutsideDone_1.jpg

DELAY : http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FfvGpbu5_xk/maxresdefault.jpg

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

As much as iam ashamed to admit it there was a time when I owned a sizable chunk of rack gear. The first preamp I owned was a Digitech Valve FX, while it had a tube in it the distortions to me still sounded very much DOD distortion pedals. Wasnt happy with it I wound up trading it in on a Peavey Tube Fex. So i jumped from having 1 tube to 2 tubes! I actually liked the Tube Fex in that it had external data wheels that I could reach over and tweak gain, output, and treble middle bass. With this preamp I took my first stab at actually making a rack system. I got me a furman power conditioner, a rocktron chameleon and a sumo sized VHT 2150 power amp. Loaded all that into a 10 space rack (had an open slot or 2) wound up not using it for long it became a toy to mess with in my basement. It just weighed too much to drag around and hated tweaking menus. But over the years I wound up occasionally buying and trying a few different preamps with it.

I tried the ADA MP2 (never did get an MP1) A Peavey Rockmaster which has 4 tubes and actually sounds pretty good but is only 2 channels. A GSP 2101 which had distortions that sounded like the Valve FX (someone once told me they were based off the DOD Grunge pedal and i tend to believe it) but sounded oh so lush when played clean. The only preamp I still have and its non tube is a Sansamp PSA1

At the end of all this if i wanted to offer any advice it would be to get a modern modeler. The older rack units seemed good at either doing clean all out metal gain. But were really lacking in the pushed amp over drive sound. You could get a less distorted signal but they seemed to lack the feel of a over driven amp.

The newer high end modelers like it or not really cover more ground better. Low end modelers are still poo but i think thats a given.

my 2 cents anyways

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

I don't know whats really out there.
I want a tube preamp rack unit that can cover allot of territory ranging from fender cleans to dual rectifier distortions

. . . but I'm pretty sure thats not really with a single tube preamp.

I know the axe fx and other digital units can but I really want a tube preamp rack unit.
I've been checking out the engl e530 but it seem like one trick pony (modern metal)
The e570 appears better but still more of a modern metal tone thing going on from what I can find in videos.
From what I've been able to find it seems like the marshall jmp-1 is more what will suits my needs along with some pedals.
The problem there is you can only buy used and that can risky and scary when your talking about $500.
What do you guys think and recommend?
I know things can and will get pricey but I'm a very patient person.

The type of music I like to play ranges from beatles, david bowie, metalica, to chevelle. Basically all over the place'

My thoughts on what I want is a tube preamp, tc electronics g-system for effects and controls running stereo, tuner and possibly a rocktron hush system. I already have a power amp and cabs

Really looking for advice on whats out there, whats good and bad and your recommendations.

Thanks in advance Big Kurka

If the E530 is too Modern for your liking, what about this ?

GOOD cleans, and a GREAT Rock tone too !

http://www.mesaboogie.com/amplifier...ifiers/rectifier-recording-pre-amp/index.html


PS : WHY do you want a single tube, pre amp unit ?

MORE is better !

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

I run my MP-1 through a Digitech TSR-12 for tone-shaping EQ, and trust me when I say the MP-1 needs external EQ. It came with a basic EQ that, for me, simply doesn't cut it. You have to get really extreme with the settings to make it bark, and I'm not entirely sure the circuits can take it for long. To me it's like driving as fast as your car can go at all times, from the driveway and back. Sounds like a good idea in a masculine masturbatory fantasy kinda way, but in reality, it's not a good idea. This is especially more of a concern as these units age and parts get harder to find. Replace enough of the guts and it's an entirely different animal with an old skin.

With an external EQ, you can use the MP's EQ to fine-tune certain things, though it does use a somewhat odd arrangement of "off-center" frequencies, so you'll be hard-pressed to get a straight 1kHz kick. Can't recall the specific freqs it operates on, but I've yet to find them in a 32-band graphic EQ in my DAW. While this does give it a unique sound in a sense, the old saying "just because you're unique doesn't mean you're useful" rings true.

The built-in Chorus isn't anything to write home about, either, though it's not the worst I've heard. Close, though. Easily 2nd place.

I've only ever run the unit straight through a tube poweramp once, and while it did help, it didn't help much. If sound is all you're after, and the quality of it doesn't matter, by all means, run it that way. However, if you want it to have a bit more character, an external EQ is the way to go.

I'll second the idea of looking more closely at a modern modeler if you're dead-set on a specific set of tones like you mention. While not exactly the booteek level, the Digitech 1101 is much better IMO than the 2101 was. Lots more variety. The JC-120 model does sound good, IMO. Glassy, biting, punchy clean. I never thought much of Line6's "Insane" distortion model, though I've only heard it in a POD and the M13. Can't find a use for it. I'm not a fan of their devotion to modeling vintage gear, either - I'd rather see a more generic setup but with the ability to tune the actual voicing of each effect. Sort of the digital version of DIY pedal modding. Swap out components in a digital manner, without the aroma of solder and burnt hair.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

There's nothing wrong with the older rack units. I toured with one throughout the 90s. It was an ADA-MP1, into an ART-DRX (for FX) into a power amp. It was a good rig and served me well. I did grow very weary of tapping buttons to scroll through patches and parameters every time I wanted to tweak the tone/volume for a new venue, and you always had to follow it all up with a Save command, or you lost it all. I played a couple of different places that were prone to brown-outs and weird power issues that caused me some grief -- even dumping all of my presets a couple of times.

These days I've gone with tube amps and pedals and could not be happier. I've owned and dabbled with the major current modeling rack units and though they are much nicer than my old rack gear, I still have little desire to go there again. If I had to... I'd go with another Eleven Rack or Kemper rack unit and a good power amp. But I just don't see that happening. To each his or her own though...

 

[DankStar]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

Having not heard a PSA or the Line6 HD in person, I can't speak for or against them, but I will go back to the point that the MP-1/JMP both have the same "issue": only one tube.

The jmp-1 has 2 tubes, I can see em through the vents on top

 

[Mincer]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

The X-15 is old but still viable, and built like a tank. The buttons and pedals can be assigned to any known MIDI message, and works with anything that has a MIDI interface. As well, the dual treadles eliminate the need for external expression pedals, though those can always be added to an existing setup if desired. It's big, it's ugly, but it gets the job done right. I use it to control my GSP1101, and can assign the treadles on a patch-by-patch basis to control any 2 parameters, which is one more than the built-for controller does. It's also big enough that you have less worry about fat-footing 2 buttons at once on a dark stage, and the lack of a full-text readout means you're not blinded by a glaring smart phone at your feet.
.

I owned the X-15 for many years- the big thing with those is that the main pedalboard is limited to 1 midi channel, and only program change messages are sent, which is useless if you want to want to control more than one device and more than one parameter. The expression pedals also move in 'steps' rather than a continuous motion, so it makes things like volume and wah jumpy. I'd suggest an easily found Behringer (and cheap) Behringer FCB-1010. You can send many kinds of messages from each pedal (and send many at once), including program change, CC, note on, etc. There is also a great PC editor to program the thing on a PC.
BTW, the Digitech GSP1101 is a good unit too. I don't think the OP should get hung up on the tube thing- usually the tubes in most tube preamps don't run at a high enough voltage to affect the signal like they would in a regular amp.

 

[DankStar]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

BTW, the Digitech GSP1101 is a good unit too.

it worked for mustaine, michael ammott, glen drover, chris caffery...

 

[LLL]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

I still own my ADA MP-1, B200S & MC-1 from way back when I bought them in 1989 (along with an Alesis Quadraverb).

It sounds like 128 different flavors of the same buzzy, fuzzy amp; even with a change in 12AX7s
(a pair of Chinese "silver specials").

As they say, "you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in sprinkles".



This was the "in" thing back then - got a rackmount preamp? slap some tubes in it!
got a stompbox? slap some tubes in it! It ain't legit if there's no tubes in it!

One thing sorely missing from rack gear like this is a PI tube begging for mercy; which
is a major part of the cranked (non-master volume) amp's mojo.

Anyhoo just saying caveat emptor. Better to have 1 or 2 great tones than 128 MIDI-switchable crappy ones.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

I owned the X-15 for many years- the big thing with those is that the main pedalboard is limited to 1 midi channel, and only program change messages are sent, which is useless if you want to want to control more than one device and more than one parameter. The expression pedals also move in 'steps' rather than a continuous motion, so it makes things like volume and wah jumpy. I'd suggest an easily found Behringer (and cheap) Behringer FCB-1010. You can send many kinds of messages from each pedal (and send many at once), including program change, CC, note on, etc. There is also a great PC editor to program the thing on a PC.
BTW, the Digitech GSP1101 is a good unit too. I don't think the OP should get hung up on the tube thing- usually the tubes in most tube preamps don't run at a high enough voltage to affect the signal like they would in a regular amp.

I spent a great amount of time exploring MIDI's possibilities and limitations some years back, and found that you can use one unit to send commands to other units, while the pedalboard sends commands to the primary unit. While the GSP21 Pro controller only worked with the 21, the 21 could send commands to other MIDI-capable units. While it's somewhat of a burden to set up, once it is, it works flawlessly. With the X15, it's the same: you set it up for the main unit, and the main unit sends commands to external units.

The treadles on mine work more smoothly than what you describe; perhaps there's a setting in your unit that isn't compatible?

 

[Red_Label]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

I still own my ADA MP-1, B200S & MC-1 from way back when I bought them in 1989 (along with an Alesis Quadraverb).

It sounds like 128 different flavors of the same buzzy, fuzzy amp; even with a change in 12AX7s
(a pair of Chinese "silver specials").

As they say, "you can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in sprinkles".

View attachment 62912

This was the "in" thing back then - got a rackmount preamp? slap some tubes in it!
got a stompbox? slap some tubes in it! It ain't legit if there's no tubes in it!

One thing sorely missing from rack gear like this is a PI tube begging for mercy; which
is a major part of the cranked (non-master volume) amp's mojo.

Anyhoo just saying caveat emptor. Better to have 1 or 2 great tones than 128 MIDI-switchable crappy ones.

Totally agree! Especially the last sentence. I used to want to tap into a bunch of different presets during the night... now I just want 2-3 great tones and then I'm free to be inspired an focus on my playing. As a network admin for the past 20 years, I tap buttons all day long... I just wanna play at night!

The ADA, JMP, and other rack preamps were very good. Most have stood the test of time. Having said that... I believe that great tube amps are BETTER (especially in this day and age of boutique gear and faithful repros of the great classics). But to each his or her own....

 

[Mincer]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

With the X15, it's the same: you set it up for the main unit, and the main unit sends commands to external units.

The treadles on mine work more smoothly than what you describe; perhaps there's a setting in your unit that isn't compatible?

Really? In all my years of racks of guitar synths and looping devices, I've used a foot controller to send out discrete messages to each unit (sometimes a dozen or more). This way, you can switch out the units and not have to reprogram. So the GSP can remap incoming midi messages and send it off to something else on another channel? How many devices can you do that with? Can it take something like a program change message one one channel (which the X15 is only capable of doing) and change it to a CC message on another channel? I also don't think it can do 1 midi message when you press a button and another when you release (like note on 127, note on 0) or a CC message (to be used like a momentary switch- like a sustain pedal or like taking the pitch transposer on channel 5 up an octave, but only when the button is pressed). As you get into programming more rack units, it is important that they get the right messages at the right time. If all you are doing is changing presets, it is probably fine for one unit, but changing many parameters on discrete units all at once is what midi is made for...and it requires a controller that can send more than program change messages on a single channel. I have heard of devices that can take incoming messages and 'force' translation to another midi message...like take a program change message and change it to a sys ex stream which loads another set of patches, but these were more popular years ago when the only controllers available couldn't do much.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: For the Rack Gurus - Really want to start building a rack unit, BUT

My rig's been unplugged for about a year, but IIRC, the way I had it set up was that the X15 changed patches on the TSR-12 (the FX unit), which in turn called up patches in the MP-1. It seems more logical to control the preamp directly, but given the MP-1's limits, I felt it was better to slave that via MIDI to the more full-featured unit - the TSR in this case. From there, I could assign the treadles to send CC messages for effect volume or some other parameter (Chorus Rate, Sweep Depth, etc).

Using the X15 with the 1101, I just set up CCs for the treadles to handle Amp Gain and Master Volume.

However, I seem to recall one of those units having the ability to either send or receive a given MIDI command as a CC message. I'd have to get them all set up again to see what was what, but I'm pretty sure that's how it went.

For units that have only 2 MIDI ports, one typically shares the responsibility of Thru, while still being able to also receive (some are Out/Thru, some are In/Thru), or may have an internal option for that (I think the Alesis SR-16 does this where you can select MIDI Out, Out+Thru, or just Thru). So, the setup is easier when you can control both program changes and pass those commands along, and if you can define what each incoming message is interpreted as. I do know the 1101 has custom MIDI message tweaking for several parameters in a patch, if not all. Not sure if it can go as deep as Note On/Off interpreted as CC Volume Up/Down, though. If you need a sustain pedal for a given unit, it may be best to stick with a dedicated pedal for that, but from what I recall of the X15 manual, any button can be assigned to any MIDI message. I haven't hooked it up to my QSR or QS6, so I can't say for certain how it would work as a sustain pedal, but since the switches are not Momentary, I'm leaning against that possibility. At most, I'd say you could assign one switch for Sustain On and the neighboring switch for Sustain Off. You may also be able to assign that function to one of the treadles.