FRFR cabs vs. traditional guitar cabs for gigs

[Inflames626]

Hi all,
When using a modeling amp like an Axe FX or Kemper, is it better to use FRFR speakers or guitar cabs? There seem to be conflicting opinions on this.

I thought FRFRs were more like stereo speakers. I thought perhaps nuances in the impulse responses in the modelers would come through an FRFR better. A guitar cab has a different frequency response and so using impulse responses through a traditional cab would seem to be like layering cabinet sounds and thus not very good.

That said some people seem to feel FRFRs are better used as monitors.

When I'm thinking of gigging with them, I'm mainly thinking playing as you would through a traditional half/full stack, no mic because you're loud enough, or a mic'ed half/full stack amplified by sound reinforcement for larger venues.

Thanks.

 

[Hsb]

If you are using a modeler and a cab, why would one also use an IR, the cab and IR kinda fight each other and makes no sense.

 

[Inflames626]

If you are using a modeler and a cab, why would one also use an IR, the cab and IR kinda fight each other and makes no sense.

This is what I was thinking. But mainly for a few reasons.

1) An IR can be used to simulate a mic/cab combo you don't have as a kind of last in chain EQ curve.
2) Guitar cabs seem a little more robustly built.
3) Guitar speakers are already voiced for what you're going for anyway.

Kind of like why would one use a pedal to boost a preamp? You're essentially putting in two preamps before the power amp.

So I'm looking at it the same way with IR before cab. A cab before a cab. Most I've read say it sounds bad but I thought perhaps certain IRs with certain real life cabs might sound good in the same way a distortion pedal into a high gain amp still sounds good even though you're doubling the sound you're going for.

 

[Inflames626]

Also my thinking for FRFR is if you were monitoring a whole band FRFR makes sense, but for just one's guitar alone, you're still mainly picking up guitar only frequencies.

There might be some very low lows and very high highs to mimic a mic'ed cab in room via an impulse response, but I figured the majority of the tone coming through an FRFR speaker would still be mostly what comes through a guitar speaker.

 

[Mincer]

I use an FRFR with my Fractal. One bonus is that it is smaller and lighter than a guitar cab.

 

[Inflames626]

I use an FRFR with my Fractal. One bonus is that it is smaller and lighter than a guitar cab.

Mincer, the smallness/lightness is why I thought they might not be as road worthy.

 

[Securb]

I would say the best of both worlds would be to get something from the Roland JC line. They were designed as keyboard/guitar amps, so by design, they are full range, and the response is very flat. Also, by design, they are made not to have the warmth of a tube amp, meaning they will not color the signal. On the flip side, you can do anything guitar with them, and with the right amp-in-a-box, they will take on the characteristics of any tube amp you desire.

 

[Inflames626]

I would say the best of both worlds would be to get something from the Roland JC line. They were designed as keyboard/guitar amps, so by design, they are full range, and the response is very flat. Also, by design, they are made not to have the warmth of a tube amp, meaning they will not color the signal. On the flip side, you can do anything guitar with them, and with the right amp-in-a-box, they will take on the characteristics of any tube amp you desire.

This is a great answer, Securb. Thank you.

Indeed I often use a Roland JC120 sim for bright cleans (ol' Metallica standby with the EMG 60 in the 80s), and then use some kind of Fender Twin sim and maybe an A2PB for a warm clean.

I think they are a bit pricey for the combos. Is there a way to just get the cabs? I've never seen Roland cabs (at least from the JC line) available by themselves. Then again, I never look. I just think JC120 as a unit.

 

[Inflames626]

If you are using a modeler and a cab, why would one also use an IR, the cab and IR kinda fight each other and makes no sense.

Also, if you're mic'ing your FRFR, wouldn't the mic (most likely an SM57) just roll off a bunch of your wider FRFR frequency spectrum?

I don't know a lot about live sound, but it almost sounds more worthwhile to use the FRFR as a monitor, run the modeler to the FOH or sound person directly, and have them send it through sound reinforcement. Not sure if this is a thing.

 

[Inflames626]

Hope this helps:

https://geargods.net/news/connecting-amp-modelers-for-live-performance-the-complete-guide/

 

[Securb]

This is a great answer, Securb. Thank you.

Indeed I often use a Roland JC120 sim for bright cleans (ol' Metallica standby with the EMG 60 in the 80s), and then use some kind of Fender Twin sim and maybe an A2PB for a warm clean.

I think they are a bit pricey for the combos. Is there a way to just get the cabs? I've never seen Roland cabs (at least from the JC line) available by themselves. Then again, I never look. I just think JC120 as a unit.

They made a 4x12 in the 70s to go with the heads, but they are rare to find and are collector's pieces now. You might find one if you break into a dentist's or lawyer's office. I would say keep your eyes open for a combo. The combos are expensive but not rare by any stretch. Once in a while, they hit the market at a good price when someone needs to move one quickly.

 

[ErikH]

The FRFR is to be used with a modeling unit when you have the cab/mic emulation in the unit enabled. The FRFR will replicate the sound you have programmed as best as possible with little to no coloration. If you want to use a power amp and guitar cab, then disable any cab/mic emulation in the modeler.

Almost all FRFR speakers have a direct out to send to FOH, or send it to FOH straight from the modeler. Most setups I've seen have the direct out going from the FRFR. There is zero need to mic them up. If you play in a band that uses IEMs all the time, you can eliminate the FRFR and send the modeling unit direct to the mixer and get all you need in the IEMs.

The Headrush FRFRs are a great value. The 8" version is small, lightweight, and plenty of power for nearly anywhere. If you're on a super large stage, then get more in the stage monitors or use IEMs for a full sound mix.

 

[Inflames626]

IEMs?

And wouldn't having FRFRs interfere if you're using in ears?

In a small live situation I would think of using the modeler, power amp, and FRFR (no need for a mic due to small venue size--just turn it up loud enough for the audience to hear over drums).

That said, I wasn't sure how robust the FRFR would be compared to a guitar cab.

 

[Inflames626]

Nevermind. IEM=in ear monitor. Sorry. Slow to pick that up.

 

[ErikH]

Majority of FRFR's have power. They are powered speakers. They wouldn't interfere with the IEM because that's a different mix. The FRFR would be for stage reference of your instrument. There is zero need with today's FOH systems to crank the snot out of the amps on the stage. Let the FOH handle getting the sound out there and use the FRFR at a reasonable volume for you and your bandmates on stage, along with a slight mix in the stage monitors if necessary.

If you use IEMs but other's don't or not everyone does, then your FRFR would be a good stage reference for them if stage monitors are at a minimum. I've played with folks where 2 people use IEMs but the rest of us don't.

In a small live setup, you can probably eliminate the IEM and just use the FRFR as your stage reference. They are plenty robust. Take care of your gear, don't toss it around and it'll be fine.

 

[Inflames626]

Thanks ErikH. I've been in all sorts of live situations, a lot of times with Peavey stuff from the 70s or 80s and equipment that hasn't been updated in decades, or even places without clean power and needing a power conditioner. A lot of times places still use floor wedges for monitoring.

I still have kind of an old school "turn your amp up loud enough" or "mic it if you can't be loud enough" mentality.

I thought having FRFR and IEM close together might cause some kind of loop. I've never used IEMs either. They seem kind of high end for modest gigs--I've seen separate monitoring and FOH engineers, and obviously the more you add on (assuming the band brings their own people instead of using the venue's), the overhead goes up.

I really need to brush up on my live sound knowledge so it is as strong as my home recording knowledge.

 

[Inflames626]

Edit: also having an IEM and stage monitor at the same time would seem to be redundant and maybe confusing, unless one mix carries the whole band and the other just carries your instrument.

It would seem to me like trying to have a telephone conversation while listening to music at the same time.​

 

[Inflames626]

Plus a lot of bands still want to use a 4x12 backline for looks, so imagining those little FRFR speakers as being loud enough to work even as monitors on stage seems surprising.

 

[Mincer]

Mincer, the smallness/lightness is why I thought they might not be as road worthy.

They travel in a soft case, and they are still in amazing shape.

 

[ErikH]

Thanks ErikH. I've been in all sorts of live situations, a lot of times with Peavey stuff from the 70s or 80s and equipment that hasn't been updated in decades, or even places without clean power and needing a power conditioner. A lot of times places still use floor wedges for monitoring.

I still have kind of an old school "turn your amp up loud enough" or "mic it if you can't be loud enough" mentality.

I thought having FRFR and IEM close together might cause some kind of loop. I've never used IEMs either. They seem kind of high end for modest gigs--I've seen separate monitoring and FOH engineers, and obviously the more you add on (assuming the band brings their own people instead of using the venue's), the overhead goes up.

I really need to brush up on my live sound knowledge so it is as strong as my home recording knowledge.

When I started playing with people it was the same kinda thing. Front wedges and turn the amps up. Things have changed drastically with live sound. Having an FRFR and an IEM won't do any harm or cause any loop. What you have the in the IEM is your own personal mix of the whole band, even yourself. Think of it like this, you're taking what floor monitor mix you would have in front of you and putting in an IEM. My last band, we had 2 wedges out front and our drummer had a wedge. The rhythm guitar player used IEMs and he had a FRFR for his modeling unit floorboard. Sometimes our lead player would use IEMs and he too had a FRFR that was by my bass cabinet.

There's no rule that you have to use one or the other or both. Some will use IEMs but have a wedge or two on stand-by in case the IEMs go out and then they can still hear everything when taking them out. Otherwise, you're relying on hearing what is going out the FOH for what you can't hear.

In the worship band I play in, we use IEMs for everyone. No stage wedges at all. The only thing you hear on stage is the drums behind the shield and some acoustic guitar. We have our own mixes in the IEMs.

If you're doing old school stuff, you could easily use a FRFR, even the Headrush 12" would be great, and send a signal to the FOH and if the PA is vocals only, turn it up. Think of it like this, your modeler is like taking your old school pedalboard, amp, mic'd up speaker cabinet, and putting it in to the digital world in a nice compact unit. The FRFR is like the PA that said mic'd cab would run through. That's the simplest concept. And sending the FRFR to the FOH PA is simply an XLR cable connection away.

Depending on the band, a lot of backlines I see now are a banner on either side of the drums with the bands logo or name on them and that sits in front of whatever speakers are behind it. If you need a 4x12 on stage for looks, get one that is unloaded and sit that on the stage and then put the FRFR where you need it.

The whole modeling / FRFR and using with or without a PA is pretty simple. Just take the big stuff and squeeze it down in to an itty bitty living space....lol.