From Speaker to Mic to... where? ...to PC

[C-Martin]

Hey all, I've recently decided to get myself some home recording gear.. i haven't bought anything yet since i have no idea what exactly i need or what would be best.. I've been messing around with recording for a few years but I've mostly used a Korg Pandora straight in the line in of my motherboard.. it works ok but ive been wanting to setup something a bit more "professional" sounding tho I'm not looking nor expect to get the ultimate mestering sound from my pc. Just something better.

I do have some decent stuff to start with.. Mainly my guitars, amp, cab, effects, a Shure SM57 and a old Sennheiser MD421.. a pretty decent PC but it doesn't have a sound card yet, just onboard line in and mic in and etc.. for recording i use Adobe Audition 1.5 (i know its old but it works..)

What i mostly want to know is... what do i need in betwen the mic and the pc... I've did a few test and it sounded like total shrill crap.. i was pretty disapointed but I'm guessing thats because i don't have a mic preamp (maybe a tube one?), mixer and no sound card? I'm not looking to spend a fortune on the gear yet I'm willing to invest if what I'm getting is wroth it since me and my band will probably use this stuff to record demo/albums.. that and i'm pretty **** difficult when it comes to my sound and stuff..

 

[C-Martin]

Re: From Speaker to Mic to... where? ...to PC

keep doin my research and i narrowed some things down to what i think i need.. tho im not sure wich exactly to chose yet..

For a sound card i was going for M-Audio Delta 66 or M-Audio Audiophile 192 and im kinda debating on whether i want 192khz vs 2 more 1/4 analog ins.. tho im mostly gonna need only 2 in channels for recording 2 mics simultaneously.. also read good things about ESI's Maya44 and E-MU 1212m but seems audiophile has better drivers and overall better performance specs

Still debating on a mic preamp between Groove Tube Brick and FMR's RNP.. tho since the RNP is 2 channel im leaning towards that one more, only thing is im not sure i like the idea of a 6db jump on the gain controls... id like a tube preamp but for the price RNP seems to be the best there is that i found since everything else seems to be in the grand and higher price range for the quality we want..

btw ill be recording mostly hard rock to heavy/trash metal distorted guitars for this project.. some clean parts too but mostly heavily gained guitars and probably gonna track Base DI.. drums will be recorded from a professional recording studio

 

[J Moose]

Re: From Speaker to Mic to... where? ...to PC

Don't worry about recording at 192... only the classical guys are doing that. There IS an appreciable difference between 44.1 & 88.2 though... Well worth the added hard drive space it'll chew up.

You need a micamp for the mics...

If you're considering getting "serious" about the recording thing & are thinking about doing "band" or record work... Get an interface with more then 2-channels of I/O. Four would be minimal, 8 would be optimal even if you aren't going to record drums.

You'll also want/need a compressor in the analog domain before the interface.

 

[C-Martin]

Re: From Speaker to Mic to... where? ...to PC

why not worry about 192? i figured the higher you can get the better since you get a wider range if i want to only use 96 i could.. but if i ever wanted to try out with 192 i still could.. how much more disk space does it take from 48 to 96 and from that to 192?

about the more I/O.. i do see that more is obviously better and offers much more possibilities but if i only really need 2 ins to track 2 simultaneous mics im wondering why you suggest me having more for a more "serious" setup.. 2 outs would be enough for monitor and headphones.. unless I'm missing something...

as for the mic preamp I'm pretty much set on getting a FMR RNP since its got 2 channels witch is exactly what i need and seems to deliver quality sound from all the praise i keep reading.. the brick seems cool for being a affordable real tube pre but i would need to get 2 of em in the end...

 

[J Moose]

Re: From Speaker to Mic to... where? ...to PC

why not worry about 192? i figured the higher you can get the better since you get a wider range if i want to only use 96 i could.. but if i ever wanted to try out with 192 i still could.. how much more disk space does it take from 48 to 96 and from that to 192?

I don't know the exact math, but when sample rates double the amount of disc space required basically quadruples. At 44.1 it's 5 megs per minute, per track. At 88.2 it's more like 15 megs per minute. 96kHz is like 22-25 per track....

I did a remote in upstate NY a few weeks ago... 16 tracks of 88.2 audio on a three hour show ate about 50 gigs.

Doesn't seem like much until you get into edits & overdubs... The raw multis for one song might only be 3 gigs... but after a dozen or so overdub takes per instrument you'll see that folder grow to 15-20 gigs... no problem. For one song.

Nobody, but nobody is running at 192. I highly doubt you'd find a producer/engineer or studio that can accommodate a multitrack session at that sample rate, and if they CAN there's probably a hefty rental fee involved.

More inputs & outputs... what if you want to leave the bass up & record guitar without striking it? Vocals?

Control room monitor is two outs. Headphone cue can be one (mono) or two. Plus whatever else you might need down the road... Maybe two different headphone mixes? That'd be 6 outputs...

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: From Speaker to Mic to... where? ...to PC

Hey all, I've recently decided to get myself some home recording gear.. i haven't bought anything yet since i have no idea what exactly i need or what would be best.. I've been messing around with recording for a few years but I've mostly used a Korg Pandora straight in the line in of my motherboard.. it works ok but ive been wanting to setup something a bit more "professional" sounding tho I'm not looking nor expect to get the ultimate mestering sound from my pc. Just something better.

I do have some decent stuff to start with.. Mainly my guitars, amp, cab, effects, a Shure SM57 and a old Sennheiser MD421.. a pretty decent PC but it doesn't have a sound card yet, just onboard line in and mic in and etc.. for recording i use Adobe Audition 1.5 (i know its old but it works..)

What i mostly want to know is... what do i need in betwen the mic and the pc... I've did a few test and it sounded like total shrill crap.. i was pretty disapointed but I'm guessing thats because i don't have a mic preamp (maybe a tube one?), mixer and no sound card? I'm not looking to spend a fortune on the gear yet I'm willing to invest if what I'm getting is wroth it since me and my band will probably use this stuff to record demo/albums.. that and i'm pretty **** difficult when it comes to my sound and stuff..

Why do you need a mic preamp? Doesn't the computer have a "+5dB boost" or whatever you can enable?

I'm no expert, I'm just confused as to why you'd need a preamp. If it's a mic, plug it into mic jack, otherwise if it's a preamp, plug it into the Line In, right?

 

[J Moose]

Re: From Speaker to Mic to... where? ...to PC

Why do you need a mic preamp? Doesn't the computer have a "+5dB boost" or whatever you can enable?

I'm no expert, I'm just confused as to why you'd need a preamp. If it's a mic, plug it into mic jack, otherwise if it's a preamp, plug it into the Line In, right?

"Pro" (I hate using that term) microphones utilize a 600-ohm balanced output... three leads on an XLR/cannon connector. Ground, hot & cold/negative.

The micamp is there to balance the signal & provide the gain needed to bring a mic level signal up to +4dB line level... usually anywhere from 20dB to maybe 60dB of gain is added. Balancing is done with opamps or a transformer.

It's a whole different world then the little polarized eletrec mic that attaches to the 1/8" in on a soundcard.

Same goes for the line inputs.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: From Speaker to Mic to... where? ...to PC

"Pro" (I hate using that term) microphones utilize a 600-ohm balanced output... three leads on an XLR/cannon connector. Ground, hot & cold/negative.

The micamp is there to balance the signal & provide the gain needed to bring a mic level signal up to +4dB line level... usually anywhere from 20dB to maybe 60dB of gain is added. Balancing is done with opamps or a transformer.

It's a whole different world then the little polarized eletrec mic that attaches to the 1/8" in on a soundcard.

Same goes for the line inputs.

That's essentially what I said: sure, if you're bringing it up to "line level", but that means mic -> preamp -> Line In jack (not mic jack) on sound card. Why would you need a preamp for the mic jack? Granted, yes, I understand the whole XLR "balanced" verses unbalanced, etc, but thanks for helping me understand....

Maybe it's his sound card? Some cheaper cards, to be quite honest, just suck.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: From Speaker to Mic to... where? ...to PC

That's essentially what I said: sure, if you're bringing it up to "line level", but that means mic -> preamp -> Line In jack (not mic jack) on sound card. Why would you need a preamp for the mic jack? Granted, yes, I understand the whole XLR "balanced" verses unbalanced, etc, but thanks for helping me understand....

Maybe it's his sound card? Some cheaper cards, to be quite honest, just suck.

I have NEVER seen an internal sound card with a proper mic pre or XLR hookup on it ... do you have a link?

The general rule with audio is: the earlier you can add gain, the less noise it will make. A gain stage late in the signal path amplifies all the noise added by everything before it.

A mic preamp introduces a gain stage immediately after the mic. This brings the mic up to a loud, recordable level with very little noise.

Most outboard audio interfaces include mic pres so you can get a nice level without getting a dedicated unit. They're typically not very good, but they do the job.

 

[C-Martin]

Re: From Speaker to Mic to... where? ...to PC

I have NEVER seen an internal sound card with a proper mic pre or XLR hookup on it ... do you have a link?

The general rule with audio is: the earlier you can add gain, the less noise it will make. A gain stage late in the signal path amplifies all the noise added by everything before it.

A mic preamp introduces a gain stage immediately after the mic. This brings the mic up to a loud, recordable level with very little noise.

Most outboard audio interfaces include mic pres so you can get a nice level without getting a dedicated unit. They're typically not very good, but they do the job.

this pretty much explains it all... and about the mic in thing, that thing is meant for use with those computer mics not higher end mics like the MD421 for example.. the quality and latency isnt good at all compared to what you get with line in and the m-audio cards (witch are not really cheap cards btw) don't have a mic in anyhow its all line in... probably better off using a usb mic than even using the mic in if your recording instruments, tho i never realy tested this