Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

[canon_mutant]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

On the Epiphone front, I also picked up a Dot 335 recently that after a little set up and fret work and, since I already knew the Epi versions of the 57 Classics were weak, I went with Fralin 92s in that one with quality pots/caps and for $700 total I have a pretty amazing guitar there now too.

Sweetwater had a sale a while back where the plek and bone upgrades were included in the $799 base price. Normally that is a $1K [$200 adder]. But since this guitar is better in every way than either the 2017 Gibson Classic or Traditional that I tried, I am not sure even the $1K price wouldn't be worth it. $800 is less than 1/2 price for the cheaper Gibson Classic.

I've reached an age where I am trying to make better music with cheaper guitars and gradually sell off my collection as opportunities warrant.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

So: canon_mutant -
Off topic real quick, I'm 65, very painfully disabled 24/7, and having a hard time deciding to NOT play live anymore as it hurts worse for weeks after. This makes me wonder how old you are when you say "reached an age". No disrespect meant, just curious, promise not to hijack this thread again. It's just that age and pain weigh,heavy on my mind right now.
Thanks,
Steve Buffington

 

[Discharged]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

I see the Classic Plus is now just 8.3

I've been browsing the Gibson site and I found a discontinued, 2015 LP model that hosts a Gibson p'up that went under my radar: it's bridge model that's called the '57+, which is NOT a '57 Classic +.

It looks like they named it in such a way to purposely create confusion, and to add insul to injury, it's paired with an actual '57 Classic on the neck position.

The '57+ IS about 8.3/8.4K, and their coils are mismatched, that's maybe why some players don't like the tone produced by the comb-filtering effect the coil-mismatch produces, specially the middle-position with a balanced-coil design like the '57 Classic.

It's tiring trying to keep up with Gibson doing these "limited edition" p'ups, intended for certain guitar models only, that can't be bought as an aftermarket product.

/Peter

 

[allbutromeo]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

It's tiring trying to keep up with Gibson doing these "limited edition" p'ups, intended for certain guitar models only, that can't be bought as an aftermarket product.

Agreed, and I wish they would offer some of these as aftermarket items. I have a Les Paul Traditional Pro II and it has a "Super 57" in it that was only offered on a couple of models over a 2-3 year span. It's very similar in spec to the older 57 Cl+ the OP is talking about at ~8.7k. I ought the guitar anticipating having to replace the pickups, but I ended up loving it.

 

[Chris0709]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

I've run into a similar situation, and honestly, put the ones that sound best to you. I pulled mine and threw in some pearly Gates and never looked back, but used the 57/+ on a hollow body I was building and they sounded fine. Just follow your ears and don't worry about what you "should" do!

 

[canon_mutant]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Ah, we are onto something here. My stock bridge pup and the replacement they sent just says 57 + on it. My neck says 57 Classic. Those bridge pups outta say 57 -. The pups I like actually say 57 Classic + and are a different part number.

But, the WholeLottaHumbucker has solved my problem so I'm good. It's just a shame Gibson [and Epi] have done this what amounts to false advertisement in my opinion.

And, since Sweetwater knew Gibson wasn't going to help, they at least tried to help but, in doing so, even changing out the bridge pup with the one Sweetwater sent has invalidated my warranty in regards to that pup. That is from Gibson CS. Yet, they also claimed the pup was in spec so there indeed was not anything they were going to do about it.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

changing out the bridge pup with the one Sweetwater sent has invalidated my warranty in regards to that pup. That is from Gibson CS. Yet, they also claimed the pup was in spec so there indeed was not anything they were going to do about it.

The only need for a warranty that I've ever seen is on a brand new guitar that has a factory defect of some sort. After that point, what's going to go wrong? I've had a lot of used guitars go thru my hands over the decades, and the only problems I've seen are from rough handling or botched mods. Other than that, the electronics and hardware aren't things that normally break on their own. If everything works, the frets are decent, and the neck isn't twisted, you're pretty much good to go.

 

[EmiAba]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Our member Kojak said that Gibson has changed the specs on '57 a few times; if true it was likely done to some of their other PU's too. Think about it, aftermarket PU makers have a passion for PU's that a guitar maker just isn't going to have. What percentage of Gibsons sold are because of the PU's, or because of the overall guitar and name on the headstock? What percentage of players won't buy a Gibson model specifically because it of the type of humbuckers it has ('57, BB, BBP, 498T/490R, 500T/496R, 490T/490R, Dirty Fingers, etc). Almost every Gibson owner I've asked doesn't even know what kind of PU's are in it, nor does he care.

From my perspective, having had more recent versions of '57's, and don't care for them at all. I think Duncan's Seth and A2P sound far better. Seth's were designed by Seth Lover and Seymour Duncan, as authentic as you can get. What they created is one of the world's great PAF's.

Almost the totality of my guitars are gibson. And I am one of the gibson users you mentioned in your post. I don t know what pickup is installed in the neck slot of my 1990 standard. Back in the day the official catalougue reported the pari 490R 498t as the standard in all the guitars coming from nashville factory (they replaced the couple HB R, HB L). My guitar has something different. It has been loaded with one HB L in the bridge and a non identified pickup in the neck. It has a baseplate with the pat # reported and it measures around 7.6. Wrote hundrends mails to gibson customer service and no answer I had back. Don t know really if it is a 490R or an early version of a 57 classic or simply an Anonymous pat # humbucker (unfortunately it is not a tim shaw, I am pretty sure). it seems a frankstein. It seems assmbled with all the remaining parts on the bench of an technician. Ok, really it does not matter since it is a good pickup and sounds good in that guitar but f I am going to pay 2000 bucks for a guitar at least I want to know what I am going to buy. and it is a shame.

 

[Discharged]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

one HB L in the bridge and a non identified pickup in the neck. It has a baseplate with the pat # reported and it measures around 7.6.

That's a T-Top. It has too little wire to be a 490 and '57 classics never used Pat# stamped baseplates. Case closed.

You won't get anything "official" from Gibson. It was pretty common for the assembly line to get anything just to get an instrument out of the door. Today they make small series of "custom" p'ups just to be used with certain instruments. And boy, do they get their p'up labels mixed up!

 

[blueman335]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

You won't get anything "official" from Gibson. It was pretty common for the assembly line to get anything just to get an instrument out of the door. Today they make small series of "custom" p'ups just to be used with certain instruments. And boy, do they get their p'up labels mixed up!

Which highlights the difference between a guitar company and a passionate pickup maker like Seymour.

 

[EmiAba]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

That's a T-Top. It has too little wire to be a 490 and '57 classics never used Pat# stamped baseplates. Case closed.

You won't get anything "official" from Gibson. It was pretty common for the assembly line to get anything just to get an instrument out of the door. Today they make small series of "custom" p'ups just to be used with certain instruments. And boy, do they get their p'up labels mixed up!

Maybe it's a T-top. Doesn't really matter. I have a 27 years old guitar in really good shape with a good sound (totally stock!!! quite strange for a Gibson :18 and this really matters. I don't want to remove the weld joints of the cover and check if there is a T on the bobbins or if a shorter mag has been installed in it. It's a waste of time. Frustrating is to buy an expensive instrument (with a serial number) because of specified specs and then you discover there is something wrong in it. After that we can also discuss the quality of the pickups or the pots and caps installed or whatever.

 

[canon_mutant]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Well, should have just order the WLH set I guess. I don't know what they've done to my 57 Classics but [I think it's just these 4 wire versions?] I was happy with the neck playing clean, playing distorted the neck sounds flabby as hell. As I said, I've currently got two other guitars with 2 wire versions of the 57 Classic/Classic+ and they both still sound fine so I guess I just need to bite the bullet and order the WholeLottaHumbucker companion to the bridge I am now quite happy with. I already know I love the Jazz SH-2 but might as well try something new.

When I put the WLH bridge pup in, I swapped the cheap Epi caps just in case they were affecting the tone any and that didn't change anything. Since I have a set of quality 500K pots, when I swap in the new neck, I think I may change to standard tone pots since I'm not much of a coil splitter anyway. Should not be anything else getting in the way of tone then . . .

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

The 57 Classic Plus is one of my favorite Gibson pickups.
It's like an overwound PAF..
I'd mate it with a PG or Seth Lover neck, and would be happy with that in most guitars. That's the ultimate A2 set, IMO.


For A5, the 59, C/59 Hybrid, Unoriented C5, A4 59n, and Jazz's are the way to go.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Keep in mind that the WLH set is on the warm side, especially the neck. It's articulate (not all neck HB's are), but its still warm. Since I prefer brighter necks with some high end bite to them, that meant spin-a-split on mine.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

That's a T-Top. It has too little wire to be a 490 and '57 classics never used Pat# stamped baseplates. Case closed.

You won't get anything "official" from Gibson. It was pretty common for the assembly line to get anything just to get an instrument out of the door. Today they make small series of "custom" p'ups just to be used with certain instruments. And boy, do they get their p'up labels mixed up!

No, for that era it would be more likely to be a Shaw humbucker. Which also came with the pat# baseplate and also was about the 7.5k mark. No t-tops wound past 1980 and the die for that bobbin was scrapped at the same time due to wear.
If the measurement has been taken in circuit then it could read a lower K than separate...which takes it right back to 490R terrain. There have been 490R's reading in the mid to high 7's. There is always a range of K. Also the first 490R's used the leftover Shaw baseplates....the ink stamp was gone even before the Shaw was replaced.

 

[canon_mutant]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Keep in mind that the WLH set is on the warm side, especially the neck. It's articulate (not all neck HB's are), but its still warm. Since I prefer brighter necks with some high end bite to them, that meant spin-a-split on mine.

Yup, I can always bump the cap a bit if they are too boomy. I think it'll be fine though. If they weren't so damn expensive, I'd buy a 2 wire 57 Classic/Classic+ set to see if it is indeed just the 4 wire versions that are now crap? As I've said, these Classics are nothing like my other 2 that I still have or 4 that I've owned.

But, I'll have some more tone diversity that I'm looking forward to.

Custom Custom Custom [tri-custom for Godin] with a Jazz in my XTSA.
Saturday Night Specials in my Carvin CS6.
57 Classics in my other Carvin and my 355.
Fralin 92s in my Dot 335.
BBs in my R9.
WholeLottaHumbuckers in my Epi LP.

Some serious tone . . . but part of the problem too. Every guitar I pick up has SERIOUS tone competition so it does tend to up the expectations but they are all pleasantly different in their own way. When I get it dialed in, this Epi LP is going to be a great guitar too for about a K with the new pups.

 

[canon_mutant]

Re: Frustrating 57 Classic/Classic Plus Problem

Just for grins and FYI . . .

Since I don't care about splitting, had the matching neck wholelottahumbucker to put in, and while doing it was going to put in better standard pots and caps, I thought I would just put in my extra set of 2 wire 57 Classics with the existing pots/caps and guess what? They sound just like they are supposed to.

I think I may well like the wholelottahumbuckers better in this guitar, already have 57s in one of my Carvins anyway, and the 57s are gold so they don't match this Epi hardware anyway, but Gibson has done something to the 57 Classics I love. Haven't tested enough to know for sure but it appears the 4 wire versions even connected as 2 wire just don't have it anymore. Or, it is just that the spare gold 57s I have, and the other 2 sets in guitars, are just old enough they were made to a different spec? If they were not so expensive, I'd buy a set of new 2 wire ones and see for sure or maybe try to find a cheap used set and experiment on the next guitar I get . . . if there is one?

Nice to know I wasn't hallucinating at least . . .

Now, back to new pots, caps, and wholelottahumbuckers . . .